Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

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Kodi
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Hello everybody. Hi have a question in one concret situation that experimented in last Lure.
Mountains of Shadow
Playable at the end of the organization phase on a company containing a ranger. If the company uses region cards for its site path, tap the ranger to move as if the following pairs of regions were adjacent: Ithilien and Gorgoroth, Ithilien and Nurn, Harondor and Nurn. The company faces an attack at the beginning of its movement/hazard phase: Orcs - 4 strikes with 9 prowess. Otherwise, if the site moved to is in one of the regions listed above, the hazard limit is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 2). Cannot be duplicated on a given company.
Mount Doom
Any company moving to Mount Doom has its hazard limit modified by +2 and hazard creatures may always be played keyed to the site regardless of any other cards played.
1. There is a company with 2 characters.
2. Then in organization phase play Mountains of Shadow to reduce the hazards limit by 2 (to a minimum of2) if the company moves to Gorgoroth.
3. The company moves to Mt Doom. The hazards limit is modified by +2.

The question is what is the hazard limit to this company. Because depending of the order you resolve the modifications is 2 or 4. There are 2 options.

option a
limit 4 = company size (2) - mountains of shadow (0) + mount doom (2)

option b
limit 2 = company size (2) + mount doom (2) - mountains of shadow (2)

Thanks!
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Konrad Klar
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"Any company moving to Mount Doom has its hazard limit modified by +2"
is an action caused by passive condition (action is +2 to HL, condition is a moving to Mount Doom).

"if the site moved to is in one of the regions listed above, the hazard limit is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 2)" is action governed by rule:
CRF, Turn Sequence, Organization Phase, Choosing a New Site wrote:Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site
path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is
revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves,
the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on
the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the
correct conditions are met.
Order of declaration of such actions is currently not defined by rules.
The following proposal is aimed to solve the problem:
Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

If it will be accepted then it will mean the a resource player will choose an order of declaration of such actions.
Most convenient for him order of declarations would be:
"action from Mountains of Shadow"
"action from Mount Doom"
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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Kodi
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Thank you! very usefull ;)
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the JabberwocK
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Here is how a previous NetRep ruled on this, along with his explanation:
NetRep Digest #36-
so he decided (as the hazard player) that Ash Mountains' effect
(lowering the hazard limit by two _with a minimum of two_) comes
before Mount Dooms (increasing it), the count ended up being:
two (one plus two halves), minus zero (Ash Mountains), plus two
(Mount Doom) = FOUR.
is this possible?

*** Ash Mountains creates a passive condition for the turn that
is triggered if you reveal a destination site for that company that
is in a region listed on the card. CRF, Rulings by Term, Passive
Conditions:
Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a
result of some specific passive condition, this action becomes automatically
the first action declared in the chain of effects to immediately
follow the chain of effects producing the passive condition. The
passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved
in its own chain of effects, or the action is canceled. Note that
actions in the strike sequence follow a different set of rules.

This means that the passive condition is applied after the effects
listed on Mount Doom are resolved. There is no chance for the hazard
player to choose the order because there is no ambiguity in the order.
So, in your case:
1. Play Ash Mountains. Sets up passive condition.
2. Reveal Mount Doom. Mount Doom's +2 resolves. Hazard limit of 4.
3. Ash Mountains is triggered and resolves. Hazard limit of 2.
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Konrad Klar
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Author does not care about definition of passive condition.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:55 pm "Any company moving to Mount Doom has its hazard limit modified by +2"
is an action caused by passive condition (action is +2 to HL, condition is a moving to Mount Doom).

"if the site moved to is in one of the regions listed above, the hazard limit is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 2)" is action governed by rule:
...
Order of declaration of such actions is currently not defined by rules.
The order is already defined by the rules. The hazard limit reduction from cards played in the organization phase happen first, before other effects. So the hazard limit reduction from Mounts of Shadow happens first and then the hazard limit increase by Mount Doom happens second. In this example with 2 characters, Mountains of Shadow does not reduce the hazard limit because the effect has a minimum of 2. Then Mount Doom will increase the hazard limit by 2. So the company's hazard limit will be 4.
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Shapeshifter
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So the current situation is as follows:

a) The Net Rep had ruled on this one so it should be considered the official reading. There is serious doubt, however, if this ruling is correct as Konrad pointed out. :arrow: HL is 2
b) Konrad Klar claims that such situation is currently not addressed by the rules and needs to be defined. :arrow: HL could be 2 or 4 (rather 2)
c) CDavis7M claims that this is all covered by the rules. :arrow: HL is 4

@CDavis7M: Could you further explain why you think this is covered by the rules, please?
@CoE members: Maybe this one should be clarified once and for all. I've seen some One Ring decks during the past years that made use of this 'trick' (i.e. reducing HL to 2).

A follow-up remark/question: I think that one can always respond to the hazard limit reducing effect of Mountains of Shadow / Ash Mountains by playing non-creature, non-corruption hazards in the same chain of effects in which the effect is declared, thus using up a HL of 4 in any case. Any doubts?
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Konrad Klar
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Shapeshifter wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:56 am A follow-up remark/question: I think that one can always respond to the hazard limit reducing effect of Mountains of Shadow / Ash Mountains by playing non-creature, non-corruption hazards in the same chain of effects in which the effect is declared, thus using up a HL of 4 in any case. Any doubts?
In short: yes.

https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 489#p34489
Beginning/end of phase and turn #2 has status of proposal.

According to the proposal:

"ABP: An actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) beginning of given phase or a turn."
"If there are any other non-ABP actions triggered at beginning of given phase or a turn, player may declare any otherwise legal action in response to action(s) declared at beginning of the phase."

+2 HL from Mount Doom is not an action that may happen only at beginning of M/H phase. It may be also triggered if a company is redirected to Mount Doom. The action is not ABP.
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CDavis7M
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I'll just refer to the actual rules instead of making rules up.
Shapeshifter wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:56 amA follow-up remark/question: I think that one can always respond to the hazard limit reducing effect of Mountains of Shadow / Ash Mountains by playing non-creature, non-corruption hazards in the same chain of effects in which the effect is declared, thus using up a HL of 4 in any case. Any doubts?
No, you cannot do this because it violates the Hazard Limit rules. The M/H phase has a series of steps that must be followed in order. Revealing the site card and drawing cards happens in Step 1 while playing hazards cannot happen until Step 2. The hazard limit rules state that effects that modify the hazard limit which were previously played are immediately applied when the new site is revealed. "Immediately applied" means applied before any part of Step 2 can happen. Hazard Limit modification timing is different than the timing for other effects played during the organization phase, which get "declared" in a chain of effects (CRF, organization phase) using last in first out ordering rather than "immediately applied" in some order chosen by the player.

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Shapeshifter wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:56 am@CDavis7M: Could you further explain why you think this is covered by the rules, please?
The CoE Netrep didn't understand passive conditions in general and often didn't bother to read the rules. The effect of Mountains of Shadow is clearly not a passive condition and the CoE Netrep failed to read the rules on applying effects played during the organization phase in the CRF and they failed to read the rules on the hazard limit. I've pointed out this hazard limit rule out to Konrad before too.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 5:13 pmThe order is already defined by the rules. The hazard limit reduction from cards played in the organization phase happen first, before other effects. So the hazard limit reduction from Mounts of Shadow happens first and then the hazard limit increase by Mount Doom happens second. In this example with 2 characters, Mountains of Shadow does not reduce the hazard limit because the effect has a minimum of 2. Then Mount Doom will increase the hazard limit by 2. So the company's hazard limit will be 4.
Mountains of Shadow is a card that was played prior to the new site being revealed. The ordering is defined:

1. Mount Doom card is revealed and the base hazard limit is set simultaneously. There are 2 characters so the base hazard limit is set to 2.
2. Cards played prior to the new site being revealed are immediately applied. This does not happen in a chain of effects with last in first out orders -- it is immediately applied without being declared in an order set by the player. So Mountains of Shadow's effect is applied. The effect has a minimum of 2 so the hazard limit is 2.
3. Mount Doom's effect is applied by passive conditions so it will be first declared in the first chain of effects to happen after this card was revealed. The hazard limit of 2 is then increased by 2.

------------------------

I almost thought that the URD got this right because they copied the hazard limit rule. But no, the author decided to make up their own rules. You can often tell when the URD is wrong because it has no citation or it cites the CoE instead of the rules of the ICE rulings. There is no correct CoE ruling that is not already in the rules or covered by ICE. Anything relying on the CoE for justification is wrong.

--------------------

Sort of a side topic, but I feel like there is an overreliance on arguing "lots of people play like this" and "there is a ruling I remember." If there is a tournament, the player should have the rulesbook on hand to settle a dispute. It takes 2 minutes to look something up rather than spend 5 minutes discussing and another 5 to explain it to the tournament director. Tons of the CoE rulings are wrong and those rulings are actually way longer than the rules.
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Konrad Klar
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"Any cards which modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point are then immediately applied to the company's base hazard limit in the order chosen by the player controling the company."

Why I think that above is problematic:

- it does not include effects which modify HL (like halving HL due to bringing hazards from sideboard), only cards,
- it does include the cards like Gandalf The White Rider, which may be played prior the company's M/H phase and their effects may be triggered later.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:27 pm "Any cards which modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point are then immediately applied to the company's base hazard limit in the order chosen by the player controling the company."

Why I think that above is problematic:

- it does not include effects which modify HL (like halving HL due to bringing hazards from sideboard), only cards,
- it does include the cards like Gandalf The White Rider, which may be played prior the company's M/H phase and their effects may be triggered later.
Again, this can all be understood by reading the rules:

"If you move cards from your sideboard in this fashion, the hazard limit for each of your opponent's companies is reduced to half of normal for the rest of the turn." Look at the list 1, 2, 3 I wrote above. The halving from sideboarding happens at Step 1. Mountains of Shadow is Step 2.

As for Gandalf The White Rider, I don't see how that is problematic. Also, don't say that Gandalf's effect is "triggered later" because that is misleading. The term "trigger" is used with respect to passive condition timing and the hazard limit rules specifically DO NOT use passive condition timing. They define their own timing with their own order of effects that is completely different from that of passive conditions.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:41 pm Also, don't say that Gandalf's effect is "triggered later" because that is misleading. The term "trigger" is used with respect to passive condition timing and the hazard limit rules specifically DO NOT use passive condition timing.
I take my responsibility for my statements.

Company's overt/non-overt status may change multiple times during the same M/H of the company. In addition to being overt at beginning of the company's M/H phase.

I feel/see the different treating of the effects that may happen in middle of company's M/H phase depending on whether they happen at beginning or in middle of the M/H as artificial and purposeless.

I think that the rule:

"Any cards which modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point are then immediately applied to the company's base hazard limit in the order chosen by the player controling the company."

has been created just to resolve problem of interaction of the effects like halving of M/H due to using a sideboard and effects of cards like Horses.

EDIT: changed typo: "In addition of being overt" > "In addition to being overt"
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CDavis7M
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There's no use in complaining and making up your own rules just because you don't want to read the existing rules and follow them. Of course the timing rules are "artificial" but this rule certainly is not purposeless. There must be some order when applying effects and this Hazard Limit rule defines the order.

If your concern arises from "Company's overt/non-overt status may change multiple times during the same M/H of the company," at least recognize that the rule "Any cards which modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point are then immediately applied to the company's base hazard limit in the order chosen by the player controlling the company" does not even apply to this situation. This timing rule only applies when the company initiates the M/H phase. The very next sentence essentially says that the normal timing rules apply thereafter.
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Konrad Klar
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Things become complicated when imprecise statements are treated literally.

"Any cards which modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point are then immediately applied to the company's base hazard limit in the order chosen by the player controling the company."

Try to follow it.
As though a card, not its effect, could be applied. Do not complain and ignore this nuance.

The rule requires an interpretation if not errata.

Cards played in organization phase may create any effect on company in its M/H phase if some conditions are met. Coincidentally the effect may have something to do with HL.

Effect of halving HL and effect of Horses are already in play before company's M/H. Their outcome does not exist at the point.
Mountains of Shadow played in organization phase says that some action (decreasing HL) will happen if some condition will be met. It is irrelevant (in my opinion) whether the action is decreasing a HL, or something else, or both.
Similarly it is irrelevant whether Smaug Ahunt was in play at beginning of M/H phase, or has been played later. Action that the card creates is handled in the same manner.

Complex situation happens when multiple effects/actions compete to be first applied/declared at the same point.

As I see it:

1. There are effects that modify HL no matter what happens. They compete each with other to be first applied.
2. There are effects that has been played in organization phase and will happen only if some condition will be met at beginning of company's M/H phase. They compete each with other and may compete with actions described in (3).
3. There are cards in play that cause action if some (passive) conditions are met. The actions compete each with other and, if the conditions are met at beginning of company's M/H phase, with actions described in (2).

If goal is a finding a way of playing in such situation then my answer is:
Let the effects (1) happen first. Horses vs Steeds vs effect of halving of HL.
Then: for purpose of timing, treat (2) and (3) uniformly. Smaug Ahunt vs Snowstorm vs Secret Passage vs Mountains of Shadow vs Mount Doom vs Gandalf the White Raider.
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CDavis7M
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There's no need to make stuff up and spread misinformation.
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:30 am Things become complicated when imprecise statements are treated literally.
"Any cards which modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point are then immediately applied to the company's base hazard limit in the order chosen by the player controling the company."
Try to follow it.
As though a card, not its effect, could be applied. Do not complain and ignore this nuance.
This is easy to follow with simple reading comprehension. The statement is easily understandable.
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:30 am Effect of halving HL and effect of Horses are already in play before company's M/H. Their outcome does not exist at the point.
Mountains of Shadow played in organization phase says that some action (decreasing HL) will happen if some condition will be met. It is irrelevant (in my opinion) whether the action is decreasing a HL, or something else, or both.
It's NOT irrelevant. The rules of the game specifically state that it is relevant whether the action modifies the hazard limit matters that changes the timing/ordering of applying those effects.
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:30 am Complex situation happens when multiple effects/actions compete to be first applied/declared at the same point.
1. There are effects that modify HL no matter what happens. They compete each with other to be first applied.
2. There are effects that has been played in organization phase and will happen only if some condition will be met at beginning of company's M/H phase. They compete each with other and may compete with actions described in (3).
3. There are cards in play that cause action if some (passive) conditions are met. The actions compete each with other and, if the conditions are met at beginning of company's M/H phase, with actions described in (2).
There's no basis for this in the rules. There's no need to make stuff up about effects that work "no matter what happens" or some "competition" between effects. There is no competition, the player chooses. The rules provide a whole paragraph explaining something different from what you said. You have seen the rule. It's so simple:
  • The base hazard limit is determined (i.e., set) simultaneously at the moment a company reveals its new site or otherwise announces it is beginning its movement/hazard phase. (The base hazard limit may be halved according to the sideboard rules).
  • Any cards which modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point are then immediately applied to the company's base hazard limit in the order chosen by the player controlling the company. (This includes short events played in the organization phase and any events already in play, regardless of how their timing would normally work in other situations).
  • With such modifications established, any cards played after this point are interpreted in the order they are resolved.
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