I am thinking here of Chill Douser and Uruk-lieutenant. I can't think of any others at the moment, but there may be more.
Both of those hazard creatures create effects which kick in after they are faced, augmenting further hazard creatures played against the same company.
If they were long-events (like Wake of War) or permanent-events (like Rank upon Rank), it's settled that they operate by means of passive conditions.
But it seems like creatures can't set up passive conditions, because as the CRF says "A card causing an action as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the action resolves, or else the action is canceled." That's why you can avoid the effects of such a long-event or permanent-event by hitting it with Marvels Told. Hazard creatures only exist in play while they are being faced. If you look at the play examples in both the METW and MELE rules, if not defeated, the 'play-by-play' always has the hazard creature card being discarded immediately after the company has faced it.
I can't find anything in the rules or CRF explicitly addressing the 'duration' of a hazard creature, so possibly the idea would be that such a creature remains in play until the end of the company's movement-hazard phase (or until the end of the turn) since it has effects beyond simply creating an attack? If that's the case, though, it would seem to prevent the hazard player from activating Uvatha to play the same Chill Douser again. That would not match the way I've always seen such cards played - typically the hazard player just discards them and then 'remembers' to apply the modifier to further creatures they play afterwards.
It does seem like there must be some sort of 'memory' associated with the hazard creatures faced in a particular movement-hazard phase, because otherwise creatures like Orc-warband would be non-functional. But I don't know how that allows an effect from an already-resolved and discarded card to be applied to cards played afterward.
How do hazard creatures which create persistent effects work?
Perhaps they were only intended to provide bonuses if they were defeated and scored or taken as trophies? They are definitely not supposed to remain in play if they aren't defeated.
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I think ICE wasn't thinking too deeply about the technical nuances of the rules when these cards were designed. They are meant to be played and discarded immediately (if not defeated) and you are meant to just remember and apply their effects for the remainder of the turn.
I think this is the key.
Chill Douser effect isn't really a passive condition. It gives the attacks the bonus, even though they don't exist yet, unconditionally.
Uruk Lieutenant similarly gives attacks a bonus, but conditionally. But the condition is on which attacks it gives the bonus to, not whether or when such attacks get the bonus; all such attacks get the bonus, and they get it even though they don't exist yet. So this also isn't a passive condition.
At the end of the day, I suspect similar interpretation would work for any short-event/creature. Seemingly by definition of needing to implement their effects immediately, these effects cannot rely on passive conditions. Govern the Storms comes to mind as well, since it was discussed recently.
As far as duration, both of these creatures state their temporal scope, so no ambiguity there.
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In one of latest (before NetRep Team ceased to work) Rulings Digests it was ruled that for purposes of timing an actions caused by activating condition set by short-events are treated as actions caused by passive condition.
Concern then was an interaction of ccs from Greed with action from Troll-Purse.
Concern then was an interaction of ccs from Greed with action from Troll-Purse.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
I have a related question which pertains to Creature cards such as Chill Douser, which affect a company:
To give an example scenario. A company of four characters (HL = 4) is moving to the Dead Marshes. The hazard player plays Chill Douser (which is not canceled). Next, the hazard player plays Ghouls, now 6 strikes at 8 prowess, and then plays Left Behind on one of the characters. At this point, there are now two moving companies, of three and one characters.
Underline mine. What happens if "the company" then splits up, i.e. due to an effect such as Left Behind? I believe there is a rule addressing this for passive conditions (?), but maybe not for this type of hazard creature condition.Chill Douser
Hazard: Creature
Undead. Three strikes. Unless Chill Douser's attack is canceled, all Undead attacks against the company for the rest of the turn receive +1 strike and +1 prowess.
To give an example scenario. A company of four characters (HL = 4) is moving to the Dead Marshes. The hazard player plays Chill Douser (which is not canceled). Next, the hazard player plays Ghouls, now 6 strikes at 8 prowess, and then plays Left Behind on one of the characters. At this point, there are now two moving companies, of three and one characters.
- Is Chill Douser's bonus to Undead attacks still in effect for both companies, neither company, or just one of the companies if the hazard player plays another Undead creature?
- Will Chill Douser affect the Undead automatic-attack at Dead Marshes if the rejoined company decides to enter the site? Left Behind reads that the split off character now "may rejoin his original company following all movement/hazard phases."
I think it would only affect creatures played against the three-character company. Left Behind specifically says the character forms a "different company" and Chill Douser was never played against that company in your example, even if it was played against one of the new company's characters. And since Left Behind explicitly says the character can "rejoin his original company" the identity of the company clearly doesn't change. That means that the AA at Dead Marshes would indeed be boosted by the effect from Chill Douser.
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I do not have an evidence, but I'm suspecting that after split a resulting companies inherit a history of an original company.
Left behind says about different and about original company. But besides, it is arbitrary decided, which of companies after split is original, and which is not.
I may have a two characters company with Bilbo and Frodo. Frodo splits of into different company. Is now the Frodo's company considered original, or the Bilbo's company is considered original?
Please note that both Bilbo and Frodo from the mentioned two characters company may be affected by Turning Hope to Despair.
Would it mean that that effect of Chill Douser's attack is gone?
Left behind says about different and about original company. But besides, it is arbitrary decided, which of companies after split is original, and which is not.
I may have a two characters company with Bilbo and Frodo. Frodo splits of into different company. Is now the Frodo's company considered original, or the Bilbo's company is considered original?
Please note that both Bilbo and Frodo from the mentioned two characters company may be affected by Turning Hope to Despair.
Would it mean that that effect of Chill Douser's attack is gone?
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I would think yes.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:26 am Please note that both Bilbo and Frodo from the mentioned two characters company may be affected by Turning Hope to Despair.
Would it mean that that effect of Chill Douser's attack is gone?
Splitting done during organization allows the resource player to choose which is the original company. These hazards do not.
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And now the question: does "original company" carry any meaning?
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Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:14 am In one of latest (before NetRep Team ceased to work) Rulings Digests it was ruled that for purposes of timing an actions caused by activating condition set by short-events are treated as actions caused by passive condition.
Concern then was an interaction of ccs from Greed with action from Troll-Purse.
[NetRep] CoE Rulings Digest #124 wrote:[...]
7)
Even though the corruption checks from Greed are not triggered by a passive condition, they are treated
that way for the purposes of timing.
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Yes.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:21 pm And now the question: does "original company" carry any meaning?
Underlined portion directly overrules the use of original company in MELE where each permanent event could be given to any resulting company (or maybe no company?); now they have to all go to the same designated original.CRF wrote:When a company splits up, its player chooses which characters are the original company and which characters are a new company, unless otherwise directed by a card. All resource permanent-events played on the original company stay with the original company.
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After split, a resulting (non-original) companies lose their history? They are not considered facing Undead attack in this turn?
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The ruling seems to only apply to "resource permanent-events". Why be so specific if it was meant to apply more broadly? I don't think this applies to resource short-events (e.g. Secret Entrance), let alone hazard effects like Chill Douser or Uruk-lieutenant.