"double Doors" beats Twilight

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Vastor Peredhil
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"double Doors" beats Twilight

Post by Vastor Peredhil »

Situation
a) Doors of Night is in play
b) Will of Sauron is in play

c) Twilight is played to target A (DoN)

d) opponent plays a new Doors of Night


I am aware of Ballot Item # 10 - Shelob & The Will of Sauron with Doors of Night {errata},

but my opponent says 1st in last out would resolve as follows

d--> c--> a --> b

doors cancels Twilight (he claims) , which would for me mean that 2 copies of Doors would be in play ?

so help me out here

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Konrad Klar
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Re: "double Doors" beats Twilight

Post by Konrad Klar »

(a) and (b) do not resolve . They are a cards in play, not a declared actions.

(c) is declared,
(d) is declared.

(d) resolves (2nd copy of Doors of Night appears in play),
(c) resolves (discarding 1st copy of Doors of Night in play).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Vastor Peredhil
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Re: "double Doors" beats Twilight

Post by Vastor Peredhil »

Thanks Konrad,

I was believing to think I forgot everything over the years ;)

Maethmaenor
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Re: "double Doors" beats Twilight

Post by Maethmaenor »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:02 am
(a) and (b) do not resolve . They are a cards in play, not a declared actions.

(c) is declared,
(d) is declared.

(d) resolves (2nd copy of Doors of Night appears in play),
(c) resolves (discarding 1st copy of Doors of Night in play).
Hello, I am back after a couple of years. I hope there is place here for this regretful Traitor.

Reading the above discussion there is something I stil don't understand, or better said, I need confirmation, please: when you say
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:02 am
(d) resolves (2nd copy of Doors of Night appears in play),
means that, that this second DoN should be immediately discarded, as it is now the second copy in play? and this way Twilight remains declared, and it is the next resolving and discarding than the first DoN? So at the end there is no DoN card in play. Should I undertstand that this way?

Thank you.

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CDavis7M
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Re: "double Doors" beats Twilight

Post by CDavis7M »

Maethmaenor wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:39 pm
(d) resolves (2nd copy of Doors of Night appears in play),
means that, that this second DoN should be immediately discarded, as it is now the second copy in play? and this way Twilight remains declared, and it is the next resolving and discarding than the first DoN? So at the end there is no DoN card in play. Should I undertstand that this way?
This is not correct -- Doors is still in play. I think there is confusion on the "Cannot be duplicated" rules. After all, it IS true that "double Doors beats Twilight." There are two situations (A) discarding duplicated cards played on 2 companies that join and (B) allowing duplication if canceling/discarding the duplicate

(A) discarding duplicated cards played on 2 companies that join:
P. 17 of the MELE rules states: "Sometimes two or more companies combine and the resulting company has two or more of the same cards that say: "cannot be duplicated on a given company." When this happens, immediately discard all but one of those cards (your choice)."
This is the only situation where a "cannot be duplicated" card would be discarded by the rules.

(B) allowing duplication if canceling/discarding the duplicate
P. 87 of the MELE rulesbook states: "In all casesn if a card 'cannot be duplicated,' a second copy of that card cannot be played unless the first copy of the card is targeted for removal earlier in the same chain of effects when the second copy is played."

P.88 of MELE states: " Cannot be duplicated: Card text meaning only one copy of that card can be in play at all. No further copies of that card can be played unless the copy in play will be removed by an action declared in the same chain of effects."

The CRF states: "Annotation 11 (modified from its original version): Some cards cannot be duplicated in limited cases -- generally on a specific target. Multiple copies of these cards or their effects may be in play normally, so long as each applies to a different target. A card that cannot be duplicated can be played when a copy is already in play only if the copy in play is currently being targeted by an effect that will discard it."


The second DoN is allowed to duplicate the first as the first is targeted for removed. It does not get discarded.

Maethmaenor
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Re: "double Doors" beats Twilight

Post by Maethmaenor »

Thank you CDavis7M, it is clear now. For any reason, I was thinking DoN could discard Twilight (as the last can be played as resource or hazard), but now that I remember, it cannot. So I thought the reason that in this example that didn’t happen was the discarding of DoN because of duplication. But it is clear now, thanks again.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: "double Doors" beats Twilight

Post by Konrad Klar »

Doors of Night DOES NOT cancel/discard continuously the resource environment effects/cards.
It only discards them once when it comes in play.

BTW. look at text of Moon.
The Wizards: Moon
Resource: Long-event

Environment. If Gates of Morning is in play, treat all [-me_wi-] as [-me_bl-] and all Border-lands [-me_bl-] as [-me_fd-] for the purposes of playing hazards. If Doors of Night is in play, treat all [-me_dd-] as [-me_sl-] and all Shadow-lands [-me_sl-] as [-me_wi-] for the purposes of playing hazards. Cannot be duplicated.
Underline mine.

If Doors of Night would continuously discard environment resource cards, then the underline phrase would never work.

P.S.
Codes for region symbols currently do not work too.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Maethmaenor
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Re: "double Doors" beats Twilight

Post by Maethmaenor »

Hello Konrad, thanks. I understand what you explain here, but I think my confusion was to think that the second copy of DoN should be discarded because of duplication, what in fact shouldn’t (unless I have another confusion that I didn’t notice. Well that is always :D ).

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