Council of Elrond

Spider of the Môrlat wrote: Unique. Spider. May be played as a hazard creature (with two strikes) or as a permanent-event. As a creature, she may be played at Dol Guldur and The Sulfur-deeps. If Doors of Night is in play, she may also be keyed to Southern Mirkwood, Heart of Mirkwood, or Woodland Realm; or at any adjacent site of The Sulfur-deeps. If played as a permanent-event, all Spider attacks receive +1 strike. Additionally, any company moving in Southern Mirkwood, Heart of Mirkwood, Woodland Realm, Dagorlad, or Brown Lands faces a Spider attack of 2 strikes with 10 prowess. You can return Spider of the Môrlat as a permanent-event to your hand-which counts as one against the hazard limit.

Balrog, Clarifications, Defeating a Permanent-event wrote:Certain hazard permanent-events indicate that they give “kill” marshalling points (e.g., Dragon “At Hunt” and “At Home” cards, the “Spawn” hazards from ME: The Balrog, etc.). Each of these cards has an attack associated with it. If such an attack is defeated, treat the associated card as a defeated creature.

So if attack from Spider of the Môrlat as PE is defeated, Spider of the Môrlat is treated as defeated creature?

Spider of the Morlat is not from MEBA. Since it's not just a perm event but also a creature, I think it's pretty clear that its kill points are only won if you defeat the creature.

Dragon At Home cards are not from MEBA too, but are mentioned in quoted MEBA rule.
Spider of the Môrlat is createue, but is also PE and "Spider attack of 2 strikes with 10 prowess" is associeted with PE.

Well, At Hunt cards aren't permanent events, they are long events.

This is a clarification, not a rule so you have to read it with a little understanding of what it is talking about.

So this is for player's consideration which attacks associated with PE cause eliminating PE if defated?

It's pretty clear which long-events and perm-events give MPs when defeated and which attacks you need to defeat to get those MPs. If you have any question about it, if the attack you defeated has the prowess and body listed in the lower left hand corner of the card you get the MPs.

Wacho wrote:It's pretty clear which long-events and perm-events give MPs when defeated and which attacks you need to defeat to get those MPs. If you have any question about it, if the attack you defeated has the prowess and body listed in the lower left hand corner of the card you get the MPs.

How about Balrog of Moria, Mordor in Arms?

They mention in their text what happens.

So just to clarify there are no kill marshalling points for the balrog right? Cos my cousin often uses this to win the game. Also can you gain kill marshalling points for defeating your own dragon ahunt card?

Balrog of Moria wrote:Unique. The Balrog appears in Moria. The Moria site gains a second automatic-attack of 1 strike with 18 prowess and no body (i.e., 18/-). If this 2nd automatic-attack is defeated, this permanent-event is removed from play (i.e., the Balrog is defeated). If your opponent defeats this 2nd automatic-attack, he receives the marshalling points. In addition, unless Galadriel is at Lórien, or she is not in play, Lórien is considered a Free-hold [F] (for the purposes of healing and playing hazards). +2 prowess to all automatic-attacks at sites in Hollin, Redhorn Gate, and Wold & Foothills.

The Dragons, Manifestations of Dragons wrote:Only your opponent can receive marshalling points from defeating a manifestation of a Dragon that you played.

You can never gain MPs for a hazard you play.

OK thanks for your help, also does the balrog affect itself with the +2 to create one strike of 20 prowess?

Yes.

I'm on the same page as Konrad. I've attempted to "earnestly study this matter" and found no rules texts that would override the quoted The Balrog clarification. It stipulates three requirements for its implication:

1. card is a hazard permanent event
2. card indicates "kill" marshalling points
3. card has an attack associated with it

Spider of Morlat achieves all of these requirements. Therefore, if its permanent-event attack is defeated, "treat the associated card as a defeated creature." Wizard or Fallen Wizard resource players (for whom the attack is not detainment) can thus receive the card's MP.

I have been told that this is not how this card is typically played by most groups. However, arguments such as "I think it's pretty clear", "if the attack you defeated has the prowess and body listed in the lower left hand corner of the card you get the MPs", "this is how I've played for 20 years", and "4 MP is too much for defeating a 3@10 attack" are indeed nowhere in the official rules and not a sufficient basis for universal understanding/enforcement.

I am very interested in any official rules texts that would shed new insight into this matter (the upcoming 2019 ARV may be a good option). Until that time, I find no ambiguity to argue against a player defeating the permanent-event attack receiving the card's MP, house rules aside.

Aside - can't you return the Spider of Morlat to your hand after 2 strikes? (Before the 3rd).

(Btw, I think the intention was that Spider of Morlat is not defeated as the automatic attacks are smaller spiders)

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