(Easy way of) killing of Spider of the Môrlat (?)

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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:36 pm Aside - can't you return the Spider of Morlat to your hand after 2 strikes? (Before the 3rd).
I don't believe so. The attack has already been created, so returning it to your hand does not affect the attack, so you are not allowed to do it.
CRF wrote: Annotation 17: The only actions that may be declared during a strike sequence are those outlined in Annotation 18.
Annotation 18: When a defending player chooses to resolve a strike against a particular character, the only actions that may be taken by either player until the strike dice-roll is made are the following: playing hazard cards that affect the strike, the attacker may decide to use any or all of his remaining -1 modifications due to strikes in excess of the company's size, a target untapped character may take a -3 modification so that he will not automatically tap, and the defending character may play resource cards that affect the strike. An action that has the condition that a target character tap, but which otherwise has an effect not outlined here, may not be declared at this point. This is true even if the recipient of the strike would be the target character tapping and thus receive -1 to his prowess.
That said, you can always return it to your hand in response to the attack creation action if you want to protect it (assuming you have hazard limit left).
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Konrad Klar
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I believe that Spider of the Môrlat may be returned to hand, or discarded in middle of the attack created by it as PE.
But it will not cancel nor interrupt the attack.
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Theo
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Ah right. I was thinking of during the strike sequence, not between.

On the other hand, one could also argue that returning the card to your hand at that point does not disassociate the card from being treated as a defeated creature and placed in MP pile, so what would be the point.
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Konrad Klar
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To have a spawn card at hand and discard it to play Desire All for Thy Belly (between strike sequences). :)
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Theo
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Fair enough! :)
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the JabberwocK
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I have to disagree with Konrad and Theo on this topic.

The Balrog rules clarification was attempting to clarify how MPs can be gained by defeating certain types of events. While I do understand the legalistic basis on which you guys make your argument, it seems highly unlikely that ICE intended for a player to receive 4 kill points by defeating 2 strikes at 10 prowess. :roll:

Also, I thought there were arguments previously being made last year that the Balrog Rules Summary shouldn't be considered as an "official" rules document as it ran contrary to certain interpretations brought up during last year's ARV (I forget the exact rules debated). Either way, ICE was trying to clarify how certain cards function, not create a rule that applies to every hazard that has kill points and has the option to be played as an event.

If deemed necessary, I don't mind submitting this issue to the ARV for a clarification. It would be abusive and out of balance to allow the 2@10 attack to reward an easy 4 kill points. Those are Morlat's baby spiders afterall, not Morlat herself. :wink:
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Konrad Klar
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Is there a factor that decides that for defeating an attacks created by permanent-event, that has MPs printed on its card, player does not receive the MPs?
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the JabberwocK
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Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:30 pm Is there a factor that decides that for defeating an attacks created by permanent-event, that has MPs printed on its card, player does not receive the MPs?
Common sense? :lol:

I know that "common sense" doesn't always hold up to scrutiny.

I think that if the card doesn't explicitly state under what conditions the kill points are given, and there are multiple possible attacks which the hazard is capable of creating (e.g. Spider of the Morlat), then the kill points are given for defeating the more difficult attack. I don't think there are many hazards with this problem. Any others you can think of other than Spider of the Morlat?
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Konrad Klar
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If common sense is only factor, and Spider of the Môrlat is only problematic card, it is enough reason to propose an errata for Spider of the Môrlat.
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the JabberwocK
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Agreed. I will do so. =)


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CDavis7M
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Additionally, any company moving in Southern Mirkwood, Heart of Mirkwood, Woodland Realm, Dagorlad, or Brown Lands faces a baby spider attack of 2 strikes with 10 prowess.
Gotcha.
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the JabberwocK
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CDavis7M wrote:
Additionally, any company moving in Southern Mirkwood, Heart of Mirkwood, Woodland Realm, Dagorlad, or Brown Lands faces a baby spider attack of 2 strikes with 10 prowess.
Gotcha.
Haha!


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Konrad Klar
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There is other (than common sense) factor.
AFIK Spider of the Môrlat is the only card that is both a creature and an event that creates attacks.

So instead of making an errata specific to the Spider of the Môrlat, it (maybe) would be better to make a general regulation, like:
"A card that is both a creature and an event that creates attacks is not eliminated if an attacks created by it as event are defeated.
Unless a text of such card states otherwise."
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Theo
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Two points to make:
the Jabberwock wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:21 pm Also, I thought there were arguments previously being made last year that the Balrog Rules Summary shouldn't be considered as an "official" rules document as it ran contrary to certain interpretations brought up during last year's ARV (I forget the exact rules debated).
The relevant portion is not in the player turn summary portion of The Balrog Rules, but in the Clarifications section.
the Jabberwock wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:21 pm It would be abusive and out of balance to allow the 2@10 attack to reward an easy 4 kill points. Those are Morlat's baby spiders afterall, not Morlat herself. :wink:
The permanent-event version of SoM boosts itself to minimum 3@10.

I will move additional comments regarding "abusive and out of balance" to relevant ARV threads.
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Moriquendi
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The Dragons, Manifestations of Dragons wrote:
Only your opponent can receive marshalling points from defeating a manifestation of a Dragon that you played.
Key part is in bold.

It could be argued that the text doesn't specify whether the attack created by the PE SotM is an attack of the manifestation of SotM or just a generic Spider attack (baby spiders ha). General consensus is that it is a generic Spider attack.

Perhaps another item should be added to the URD:
Spider of the Môrlat
• It is legal to use the “back to hand” ability of this
card and replay in order to have a company face
two attacks, provided there is hazard limit available
[CoE 11].
• Spider attacks from Spider of the Môrlat played
as a permanent-event are considered detainment vs.
minion companies [CRF].
• Spider attacks from Spider of the Môrlat played
as a permanent-event award no Kill MP and do not
discard Spider of the Morlat from play if defeated.
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