I agree.
The Evenstar
- Konrad Klar
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We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Good effort. I appreciate it. However, I have seen Scott's ruling and I recognized that is outdated and wrong because it is not based on the newer "Cannot be Duplicated" rules.Theo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:32 am You can play multiple non-GoM The Evenstar if played on different elves. The effect is different when it has a different target. (For CDavis7M: Scott Frazer 10/24/96)
So yes, a non-GoM The Evenstar followed by a GoM The Evenstar with first effect targeting a different elf is also fine.
The Evenstar would need to say "Cannot be duplicated on a given character" in order for the 1st effect (not requiring GoM) to be able to be played on 2 different characters.
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It's incorrect to say "playing the card requires declaring its effects." Declaring all of a cards effects is not required to play a card. Cards can have multiple effects and the rules of the game, such as Annotation 8, may prevent one action of a card from being declared while allowing other actions of the same card to be declared.Theo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:32 amAnnotation 8 creates a playability condition because playing the card requires declaring its effects. If you want to break down the idea that declaring a card requires declaring all of its effects, any card printed to have a negative effect for whoever played it is essentially wasted ink ("Oh, I'm just not going to declare the second Motionless Among the Slain effect...").
Annotation 8, only requires that the targets of each action be established at declaration of those actions. Annotation 8 does NOT require all actions of several actions on the same card to have a valid target. This is why: "The additional effect of The Evenstar if Gates of Morning is in play (i.e., a Wilderness or a Border-land changes) is optional. Such a region need not exist for this to be declared."
This is just like how you can play Nenya for it's attribute bonuses even if there is no declared corruption check. Annotation 8 would prevent the corruption check effect of Nenya from being declared but it would not prevent Galadriel from getting her bonuses.
- Konrad Klar
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If an effect of a card is such that "you can do something", then "you can do something" is declared along with declaration of the card, but not the "something". I think that it is necessary because a moment when "you can do something" may happen precisely after/before resolution of other non-voluntary effect/action.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
I agree as long as the "you can do something" action doesn't require a target at declaration. Such as Smoke Rings.
Whereas The Evenstar's region type changing effect and Nenya's corruption check success action require a target.
Whereas The Evenstar's region type changing effect and Nenya's corruption check success action require a target.
- Konrad Klar
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Just I think that player does not decide at declaration whether and which region will be changed. After all it is not even know whether Gates of Morning will be in play at resolution of The Evenstar.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Regarding "Cannot be duplicated.", I agree that the way this has been interpreted has changed over the years. The CRF is clear: The Evenstar cannot be played if another is having Any effect on gameplay. There is a possibility of the first elf having been removed from play, however, at which point the first play is no longer having an effect on play.
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Nenya says "Any one". Any could be none. Not an equal comparison to The Evenstar.
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@Konrad But The Evenstar first effect is not framed in terms of "may" or "can". It is a directive, thus not optional (other than for CDavis7M).
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Good luck. I won't bother setting aside my Wizard or discarding the cards he controls with Sacrifice of Form, and if anyone has the audacity to challenge this I'll say CDavis7M gave his approval.
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Nenya says "Any one". Any could be none. Not an equal comparison to The Evenstar.
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@Konrad But The Evenstar first effect is not framed in terms of "may" or "can". It is a directive, thus not optional (other than for CDavis7M).
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I never said that the player has a choice to declare or not. I said that the rules of the game have the possiblility for an effect to not be able to be declared.
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This still doesn't support your point that all effects must be declarable in order for any of them to be declared.
Come by Night Upon Them can be played on a border-hold without an automatic attack in order to achieve it's second effect even if the first effect cannot be declared.
The Sun Unveiled can be played on a character to untap them even if that character has no hazard permanent-events on them.
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It's not optional for the player to declare it but Annotation 8 may prevent it from being declared if there is no valid target.
My counter was not arguing that all effects must be declarable, it was countering your deduction based on a comparison.CDavis7M wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:43 pmThis still doesn't support your point that all effects must be declarable in order for any of them to be declared.
Come by Night Upon Them can be played on a border-hold without an automatic attack in order to achieve it's second effect even if the first effect cannot be declared.
The Sun Unveiled can be played on a character to untap them even if that character has no hazard permanent-events on them.
Similarly:
Come by Night Upon Them: "all" could be zero.
The Sun Unveiled: "all" could be zero.
These examples are different from The Evenstar [limited edition].
[edit: limited edition only]
Last edited by Theo on Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Konrad Klar
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Declared are:CDavis7M wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:43 pm Theo wrote: ↑19 Apr 2020, 20:16
@Konrad But The Evenstar first effect is not framed in terms of "may" or "can". It is a directive, thus not optional (other than for CDavis7M).
It's not optional for the player to declare it but Annotation 8 may prevent it from being declared if there is no valid target.
1. "if Gates of Morning is in play you may choose..."
2. "if Gates of Morning is in play, the prowess of each Elf is modified by +1 (until the end of turn)"
3. "The prowess of one Elf is modified by +1 until the end of the turn."
4. The Evenstar
"one Wilderness treat as Border-land"
"one Border-land to treat as a Freeland."
are not declared.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Oh yes. I'm sorry; I was looking at the Limited version. The Unlimited version does indeed say "may" for the region change. So my appologies; Nenya, Come by Night Upon Them, and The Sun Unveiled are all perfectly fine comparisons to the last effect of The Evenstar.
Regarding:
Regarding:
I would instead reason that "The additional effect of The Evenstar if Gates of Morning is in play (i.e., a Wilderness or a Border-land changes) is optional. Such a region need not exist for this to be declared."... because it says "may"! (and "choose", since I agree with Konrad that the most consistent interpretation of choosing effects are that they cannot be required prior to resolution---see, e.g., Eyes of Mandos)CDavis7M wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:45 am Annotation 8, only requires that the targets of each action be established at declaration of those actions. Annotation 8 does NOT require all actions of several actions on the same card to have a valid target. This is why: "The additional effect of The Evenstar if Gates of Morning is in play (i.e., a Wilderness or a Border-land changes) is optional. Such a region need not exist for this to be declared."
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/