Council of Elrond

- If I defeat an At Home Dragon, Can I play a hoard item in that site? It has no longer Dragon AA, so it does not contain any hoard... Seems strange (and illogical) but I cannot find anything that contradicts it.

- Same question but if I played a Legendary Hoard on that At Home manifestation. Can I play two hoard items?

- Legendary Hoard: I understand that if the At Home manifestation is somehow eliminated or discarded, it's just inverted (so your opponent cannot just Marvel out your deck's strategy). Ok, understood, but... ¿is the inverted At Home dragon in play? I mean, it should be, so if I go to his lair, i face the AA and manage to get my grotty dirty fingers on all those not-tapping items. Ok, logic says that, but then Daelomin At Homes appears, telling that, if discarded for that effect, it adds +2 to Hazard Limit. Well, imagine I play on my turn Legendary Hoard on her (she's a girl, no?) and then my opponent moves on his turn. I discard Daelomin at Home to add +2 to HL, but wow, it does not discard, just inverts... what prevents me from using that ability again? I mean, the card is still in play, inverted cards (AFAIK) are not trated differently anywhere in the rules... so infinite hazards on my opponent's companies the rest of the game?

Thanks, mates

Just to add some info to the question:

From MWTD rules:

Any one site with a Dragon automatic-attack is a Dragon's lair. There are nine unique Dragons associated with the following lairs:

Agburanar Caves of Ulund
Bairanax Ovir Hollow
Daelomin Dancing Spire
Earcaraxe Isle of the Ulond
Itangast Gold Hill
Leucaruth Irerock
Scatha Gondmaeglom
Scorba Zarak Dum
Smaug The Lonely Mountain

Certain items are hoard items. Such an item may only be played at a site that contains a hoard. Each site with a Dragon automatic-attack (i.e. each Dragon's lair) contains a hoard.

Underline is mine

Can I say (from the underlined) that a Dragon's Lair from the nine mentioned will always contain a hoard even if the At Home manifestation is defeted (hence no longer having that site a Dragon AA)?

Mordakai wrote:- If I defeat an At Home Dragon, Can I play a hoard item in that site? It has no longer Dragon AA, so it does not contain any hoard... Seems strange (and illogical) but I cannot find anything that contradicts it.

CRF has two answers, that seem to be contradicting.

CRF, Errata (Rules) wrote:Dragon Rules, Hoards: Change "Each site with a Dragon automatic-attack (i.e., each
Dragon's Lair) contains a hoard" to "Each site which had a Dragon automatic-attack
at the beginning of the turn contains a hoard."

CRF, Rulings by Term, Dragons wrote:If a manifestation of a unique Dragon is defeated, then the automatic- attack at the
associated site is removed, and that site therefore loses its hoard status.

The first sounds like cure for "It has no longer Dragon AA, so it does not contain any hoard... Seems strange (and illogical)", the second just negates much of effect* of the first.
If the first would be an exception from second it would make a sense. But CRF does not specify any relation between the rules.

If it comes to Legendary Hoard, two things are sure:
- if Dragon at Home is no longer in play, there is no site "receiving the Dragon's automatic-attack",
- if Dragon at Home is in play, but the Dragon Ahunt is in play too, there is no site "receiving the Dragon's automatic-attack" (by text of each Dragon at Home).

Not sure is a status of inverted Dragon at Home.
If it does not count as "in play" but the Dragon has not been eliminated, then it still makes some sense - other player may play the Dragon at Home and then there will be again a site "receiving the Dragon's automatic-attack" to which the Legendary Hoard is referring.
If it does not count as "in play" but the Dragon has been eliminated, then the reference to the site "receiving the Dragon's automatic-attack" will always point to nowhere. Then the only sense is freezing Legendary Hoard, thus make it unusable.

Mordakai wrote:Just to add some info to the question:

From MWTD rules:

Any one site with a Dragon automatic-attack is a Dragon's lair. There are nine unique Dragons associated with the following lairs:

Agburanar Caves of Ulund
Bairanax Ovir Hollow
Daelomin Dancing Spire
Earcaraxe Isle of the Ulond
Itangast Gold Hill
Leucaruth Irerock
Scatha Gondmaeglom
Scorba Zarak Dum
Smaug The Lonely Mountain

Certain items are hoard items. Such an item may only be played at a site that contains a hoard. Each site with a Dragon automatic-attack (i.e. each Dragon's lair) contains a hoard.

Underline is mine

Can I say (from the underlined) that a Dragon's Lair from the nine mentioned will always contain a hoard even if the At Home manifestation is defeted (hence no longer having that site a Dragon AA)?

Each site with a Dragon automatic-attack (i.e., each Dragon's Lair) contains a hoard.

is contradicting with

If at any time an attack from a manifestation of a unique Dragon is defeated or if the manifestation is
otherwise removed from the game:
[...]
• The Dragon’s lair no longer has an automatic-attack.

both from The Dragons.
Specifically "site with a Dragon automatic-attack (i.e., each Dragon's Lair)" is wrong, because being Dragon's Lair does not imply having a Dragon automatic-attack, nor vice-versa.
"even if the At Home manifestation is defeted (hence no longer having that site a Dragon AA)" implies that you are taking into account of fact that elimination of Dragon At Home causes that respective Dragon's Lair is no longer a site that has a Dragon automatic-attack, and effectively that equation "Dragon's Lair = a site that has a Dragon automatic-attack" is not valid.

*) Regardless of fact whether there is any relation between the rules, one of consequences of the first rule is, that a site that has AA like "Opponent may play as an automatic-attack one non-unique creature from his hand" gains hoard status if the non-unique creature is type of Dragon. The first rule is not restricted to Dragon's Lairs.

Well, digging a bit I found in Rules Digest 110 and other this phrase in more or less the same wording:

Therefore, a "flipped over"At Home Dragon under Legendary Hoard does not apply any of its effects. This means, more or less, that the At Home dragon is set aside. It does not give extra AA to his home nor generates whatever other effect normally generates (+1 CP to major/greater items... etc.).

And in Rulings Digest 41:

*** The site is considered to be a hoard site until the end of the turn in which the At Home dragon was defeated.

With this two sentences, I think all my doubts have been resolved. Thanks, Konrad!!

On Wednesday, April 5, 2017, user Thorsten the Traveller wrote:

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:Yet another reason to play with dreamcard rules, as normally your Legendary Hoard At Home Dragon can never be defeated if it gets Marvelled (at least not your copy). King under the Mountain does not go well together with Legendary Hoard, which makes no sense.

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

On Wednesday, April 5, 2017, user Bandobras Took wrote:

Bandobras Took wrote:One wonders what Thorin, Thranduil, and Bard were wanting to fight over, since the Hoard magically vanished as soon as the attack's manifestation had been defeated . . .

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

On Thursday, April 6, 2017, user Mordakai wrote:

Mordakai wrote:They clearly cheated, as they crowned not one, but two Kings under the Mountain, after defeating an AHUNT manifestation of Smaug

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

On Thursday, April 6, 2017, user Bandobras Took wrote:

Bandobras Took wrote:It can't have been an Ahunt; Bard wasn't moving.

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.