If you discard Gwaihir for his effect, can non-creature hazards be played on the company?Gwaihir wrote:Unique. Playable at Eagles' Eyrie. If his company's size is two or less, you
may discard Gwaihir during the organization phase to allow his company to
move to any site that is not in a Shadow-land [s] or Dark-domain [d]; only
hazard creatures keyed to the site may be played on a company that moves in
this fashion.
Gwaihir
I need confirmation on this:
- Konrad Klar
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Only hazard creatures keyed to the site (which site?) are on a whitelist.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
- Bandobras Took
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Ugh. Guess what? According to the rules, only hazards that you play on the company come under the definition of hazard limit (e.g. creatures, Chance of Being Lost, etc.). Hazards that you play on characters, sites, or nothing at all seem to be immune.THE HAZARD LIMIT
During your opponent's movement/hazard phase, the number of hazard cards that you may play on one of your opponent's companies is that company's hazard limit.
However, we've always interpreted that as "the number of hazards you may play during the movement/hazard phase of a company," which is most emphatically *not* what that rule actually says.
If we apply that same interpretation to Gwaihir, you are indeed immune to everything except hazard creatures keyed to the site.
@Konrad Klar:
"Keyed to the site" is a phrase describing what manner of keying is being used. They would have done better to use "keyed to a site", though.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
- Konrad Klar
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Careless reading is not a cure for sloppy wording.
If to comes to hazards played during M/H phase (some may be played outside M/H phase):
all of them are being played against company; only some of them are being played on company.
(tand ext of Gwaihir is not restricted to hazards)
Term "played on company" is often used to refer to the cards that has been/are being played on entity associated with company.
Text of Stormcrow makes remark to indicate that in case of the card the "played on company" is used in literal meaning.
(the rule also says nothing about what to do in situation, when at resolution there are more hazards than HL [this may happen if some action resolved in current chain reduces HL]; there was debate in past about it and consensus was that first to resolve exceed hazards do not resolve [fizzle]).
If to comes to hazards played during M/H phase (some may be played outside M/H phase):
all of them are being played against company; only some of them are being played on company.
(tand ext of Gwaihir is not restricted to hazards)
Term "played on company" is often used to refer to the cards that has been/are being played on entity associated with company.
Text of Stormcrow makes remark to indicate that in case of the card the "played on company" is used in literal meaning.
If it comes to hazard limit:Stormcrow wrote:The direct influence of each Wizard is reduced by 2 (by 4 if Doors of Night is in play). Discard all resource permanent-events that have been played on each company with a Wizard (i.e., on the company as a whole, not individual characters, e.g., Fellowship). No such cards may be played on each Wizard's company. Discard this card when any play deck is exhausted. Cannot be duplicated.
According to that, if HL is zero a player still may declare untapping of Power Built by Waiting, or agent actions. These actions are not hazards.CRF, Turn Sequence, Movement/Hazard Phase, Playing Hazards wrote:You check the hazard limit at declaration and resolution. At declaration there must be
less hazards already declared than the hazard limit. At resolution there must be no
more hazards declared than the hazard limit.
(the rule also says nothing about what to do in situation, when at resolution there are more hazards than HL [this may happen if some action resolved in current chain reduces HL]; there was debate in past about it and consensus was that first to resolve exceed hazards do not resolve [fizzle]).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
- Bandobras Took
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- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm
That was my point; the rules refer to hazards played *on* the company, not *against.*Konrad Klar wrote:Careless reading is not a cure for sloppy wording.
If to comes to hazards played during M/H phase (some may be played outside M/H phase):
all of them are being played against company; only some of them are being played on company.
(tand ext of Gwaihir is not restricted to hazards)
I'd prefer an example that:Term "played on company" is often used to refer to the cards that has been/are being played on entity associated with company.
Text of Stormcrow makes remark to indicate that in case of the card the "played on company" is used in literal meaning.Stormcrow wrote:The direct influence of each Wizard is reduced by 2 (by 4 if Doors of Night is in play). Discard all resource permanent-events that have been played on each company with a Wizard (i.e., on the company as a whole, not individual characters, e.g., Fellowship). No such cards may be played on each Wizard's company. Discard this card when any play deck is exhausted. Cannot be duplicated.
1) Is a hazard, since this rule is dealing with hazards;
2) Is played on an entity associated with the company; and
3) Nevertheless says it is played on a company.
Nothing in that definition contradicts the rule, which says that the hazard limit applies to hazards played on the company.If it comes to hazard limit:According to that, if HL is zero a player still may declare untapping of Power Built by Waiting, or agent actions. These actions are not hazards.CRF, Turn Sequence, Movement/Hazard Phase, Playing Hazards wrote:You check the hazard limit at declaration and resolution. At declaration there must be
less hazards already declared than the hazard limit. At resolution there must be no
more hazards declared than the hazard limit.
(the rule also says nothing about what to do in situation, when at resolution there are more hazards than HL [this may happen if some action resolved in current chain reduces HL]; there was debate in past about it and consensus was that first to resolve exceed hazards do not resolve [fizzle]).
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
- Konrad Klar
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- Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
- Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
I do not know such example.Bandobras Took wrote:I'd prefer an example that:
1) Is a hazard, since this rule is dealing with hazards;
2) Is played on an entity associated with the company; and
3) Nevertheless says it is played on a company.
I know examples of resources that refer to a hazard that targets company:
Tom Bombadil, Leaflock, Great Ship.
Text of Tom Bombadil has been changed by errata.
Texts of Great Ship has been changed too.CRF, Errrata (Cards), Tom Bombadil wrote:Card Erratum: Change "that targets a company" to "that targets a company, or an
entity associated with a company."
Text of Leaflock has not been changed, but CRF says:CRF, Errrata (Cards), Great Ship wrote:Card Erratum: Add "Tap a character in target company during the organization phase
to play Great Ship on that company." Replace "...contains a coastal sea region..." with
"...contains a coastal sea region and no consecutive non-coastal sea regions..." Allows
the canceling of one creature or the canceling and discarding of an event that targets
the company in question or an entity associated with that company.
(please note the remarks for Great Ship and Leflock, that are not errata)CRF, Errrata (Cards), Leaflock wrote:Allows the canceling of one creature or the canceling and discarding of an event that
targets the company in question or an entity associated with that company.
May tap to give +1 prowess to another character facing an automatic- attack, or
hazard keyed to his site.
Right.Bandobras Took wrote:Nothing in that definition contradicts the rule, which says that the hazard limit applies to hazards played on the company.
Seems like that all other actions (including playing a hazards not played on company) that count against hazard limit just reduce number of hazards that may be played on company (and number of other actions that count against hazard limit). So both definitions are formally correct.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
- Bandobras Took
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It would seem so.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
English isn't this specific. I have read the card one way and then the other way myself. Both interpretations are valid. Secret Passage has similar language but has been ruled to not restrict non-creatures hazards from being played. This ICE ruling is understood to be correct by ICE-age veterans in my playgroup.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:20 pm Only hazard creatures keyed to the site (which site?) are on a whitelist.
Gwaihir wrote:...only hazard creatures keyed to the site may be played on a company that moves in this fashion.
Secret Passage wrote:...may only play hazard creatures that are keyed to the company's site
ICE wrote:. . .
> Secret Passage: May the opponent play non-creature hazards?
Yes.
. . .
Trevor, you should send that to ICE and ask for a job as a playtester...
Those are all excellent questions...
>Trevor Stone tst...@bvsd.k12.co.us tst...@nyx.nyx.net
>Check Out My Homepage At http://bvsd.k12.co.us/~tstone for:
>Contests, M:tG, Middle Earth interactive labyrinth game, and much more!!!
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