Council of Elrond

I have a lot of questions I would like rules clarifications on. Please don't feel the need to respond to all of them at once. Just whatever you have time for and know the answers to. Much appreciated!


1) We Have Come to Kill - Do most tournaments allow Ringwraith followers to be brought into play using this card, but not allow it to bring in your avatar Ringwraith? My understanding from the URD is that there is no clear answer or ruling on this matter and it is up for debate. Additionally, what about a Fallen Wizard bringing in Orcs and Trolls with this card? What is the current accepted ruling on this matter?

2) A Chance Meeting - Is this card an exception to the 1 character per turn limit like We Have Come to Kill clearly states? Or are you still restricted to 1 character per turn even when using this card? Also, Fallen Wizards can't use this card to bring in Agents can they? Because it says the character must be brought into play with direct influence.

3) Rebel Talk - If at the end of my organization phase my characters exceed my allowed GI due to a hazard played on one of them (eg. Rebel Talk), do I get to decide which character I bounce back to my hand?

If so, and I then choose to bounce back the character with Rebel Talk on him, does Rebel Talk
go to my opponent's discard pile?

Since this bouncing action is taking place at the end of my organization phase, it is then too late
to replay the character as my 1 character per turn and I would have to wait until my following
turn, correct?

If the character being bounced back to my hand has items, are they discarded if I don't
willingly transfer them earlier during my organization phase (and make corruption checks)?

If the character being bounced back to my hand controls an ally, the ally is discarded?

When Rebel Talk is played on a character, is he immediatley removed from DI and placed in
GI? Thus negatively affecting my roll against a Muster Disperses, for example?

4) Akhorahil (permanent event) - Can you tap to use his ability after you make a body check roll that ties an opponent's character's body in order to eliminate the character? IF NOT, does this card
see play as a permanent event and if so, what types of scenarios is it used in?

5) Storing Items - If I have a character who is carrying 3 items and he wants to store them all at a
haven, does he have to pass 3 separate corruption checks (with reduced corruption points after
each item is stored)? Or can he make a single corruption check and store all 3 at once after
passing?

6) Roac the Raven - I can play Lordly Presence on him when attempting to bring in a faction, correct?

What if I am not using Roac's special ability to bring in the faction, but using a different
character for the influence attempt....can I still play a Lordly Presence if Roac is my only diplomat in the company? Or does the influencing character have to be a diplomat?

Finally, can I play A Friend or Three on Roac while attempting to bring in a faction?

7) Buthrakaur the Green - his ability permits an unlimited amount of hazard creatures to be played after him who qualify, correct? This is even if the attack by Buthrakaur has been cancelled, correct?

8] Am I correct that you do not have to enter the site (and face automatic attacks) in order to play
cards like The Windlord Found Me, Dreams of Lore, or any other non-item, non-faction, non-ally cards which don't specify that you must enter the site to play them?

9) Direct Influence - Thrain II is controlling a 5 mind dwarf which uses all of his available direct influence (2 points of general and 3 points specific towards dwarves and dwarf factions). If he attempts to bring in a dwarf faction, will he get the +3 towards factions (stated using the word AND in his text) or will he get no bonus because the influence is currently being used to control a follower?

If he was instead controlling a 3 mind character dwarf, does he have 2 points of unrestricted DI
available while using all of his restricted DI? OR must he first use his 2 points of unrestricted
DI and 1 point of restricted, which leaves 2 points left available that may only be used for
dwarves and dwarf factions?

Unlike Thrain II which uses the word AND in his card text, the card Elf-stone uses OR: "+2 direct influence used against an Elf character or an Elf faction." Due to the word "OR" which is used, am I correct in guessing that if the direct influence is being used to control an Elf, that you can not also use the +2 bonus to influence an Elf faction?

10) The Moon is Dead - states that "All Undead attacks receive +1 strike and +1 prowess.
All Undead automatic attacks are duplicated. Discard this card when an undead attack is
defeated." So my question is this: if I defeat the first automatic attack (and thus The Moon is
Dead is discarded), does the second (duplicate) automatic attack still exist and have to be faced?
If so, does this second automatic attack still get the +1 strike and +1 prowess bonuses?

11) Dragon's Hunger - My opponent has one left against the hazard limit and starts a chain of effects
by playing Bairanax Ahunt, who immediately attacks my company traveling through Anduin
Vales. May I respond to this attack by playing Dragon's Hunger?

If yes, then my opponent responds to my Dragon's Hunger by discarding a hazard creature from
his hand (mandatory, and counts against the hazard limit). Once we start resolving this chain
of effects and get back to the attack by Bairanax Ahunt, my opponent has already reached the
hazard limit (when he discarded the creature card), so does the attack by Bairanax now fizzle?

If so, after I announce my Dragon's Hunger, could my opponent immediately respond by
tapping his Power Built By Waiting to increase the hazard limit and make sure his Bairanax
attack doesn't fizzle upon resolution?

12) On-Guard - Is there a limit to the number of on-guard cards you can play on a given site (and that can be revealed) during a turn?

13) Tolfalas - Why does Tolfalas have the errata “Scroll of Isildur Only” for its greater items?

14) Balrog Sites - Why does the URD say that non-Balrog decks may not use Balrog sites, but they can include certain sites in their location deck for playing hazard creatures? How is this done? Will you please give an example?

15) Align Palantir - what does “keep with the palantir” mean? Does bearer have corruption points
from both Align Palantir and the palantir itself? Or can it be played on the sage in the same
company as the bearer and thus split up the corruption points? Does sage have to tap to play this?

16) Wizard's Ring - errata says its not a ring item. This would prevent it from being used with Rumors of Rings, correct? Was there ever an explanation given for why this is not considered to be a ring item?

17) Plague - does the bearer of Plague also make a roll? Seems out of flavor if he does not.

18) So You've Come Back - At a haven, can the bearer split into his own company, discard this card,
then rejoin his company or a different company?


Thanks again so much for the help!

Jabberwocky wrote:I have a lot of questions I would like rules clarifications on. Please don't feel the need to respond to all of them at once. Just whatever you have time for and know the answers to. Much appreciated!


1) We Have Come to Kill - Do most tournaments allow Ringwraith followers to be brought into play using this card, but not allow it to bring in your avatar Ringwraith? My understanding from the URD is that there is no clear answer or ruling on this matter and it is up for debate. Additionally, what about a Fallen Wizard bringing in Orcs and Trolls with this card? What is the current accepted ruling on this matter?

Fallen Wizards may not bring in Orcs and Trolls with WHCtK any more than they can bring in 9-mind characters. You need a card which permits the play of Orcs or Trolls first.

As for Ringwraith Followers, that's been rolling around on the NetRep board for nigh a decade. It is absolutely clear that it can't bring in your Ringwraith (i.e. your avatar), but the case of Followers is not as clear. Keep in mind that, as with Orcs and Trolls, there must first be the ability to play a Ringwraith Follower before one could (theoretically) be brought in with WHCtK.

2) A Chance Meeting - Is this card an exception to the 1 character per turn limit like We Have Come to Kill clearly states? Or are you still restricted to 1 character per turn even when using this card? Also, Fallen Wizards can't use this card to bring in Agents can they? Because it says the character must be brought into play with direct influence.

Yes, in addition to the one character limit. FWs can use it to bring in Agents so long as such Agents are able to be controlled by DI.

3) Rebel Talk - If at the end of my organization phase my characters exceed my allowed GI due to a hazard played on one of them (eg. Rebel Talk), do I get to decide which character I bounce back to my hand?

Conditionally; you must first return to your hand any characters that were played during the organization phase. Then you discard any characters until all characters are controlled by influence.

If so, and I then choose to bounce back the character with Rebel Talk on him, does Rebel Talk
go to my opponent's discard pile?

If it's his, yes.

Since this bouncing action is taking place at the end of my organization phase, it is then too late
to replay the character as my 1 character per turn and I would have to wait until my following
turn, correct?

You may be positing an impossible situation; a character with that hazard on him would not have been played that organization phase and would have had to have been discarded, not put back in your hand.

If the character being bounced back to my hand has items, are they discarded if I don't
willingly transfer them earlier during my organization phase (and make corruption checks)?

If the character being bounced back to my hand controls an ally, the ally is discarded?

When Rebel Talk is played on a character, is he immediatley removed from DI and placed in
GI? Thus negatively affecting my roll against a Muster Disperses, for example?

It may be best to just quote the CRF and Rulebook:

A character removed from the control of direct influence outside the organization phase does not need to be controlled by general influence until that player's next organization phase.

Rules Erratum: You may play a character even if you do not have enough influence to control them. However, if there are any characters you do not have the influence to control at the end of your organization phase, the character you brought into play this turn must be returned to your hand.

DISCARDING CHARACTERS
Instead of bringing a new character into play during your organization phase, you may discard a character that is at a Darkhaven or at his home site. Your Ringwraith may not be discarded. You must take this action when you are forced to discard a character due to a lack of available influence. In this case, the character(s) need not be at a Darkhaven.

4) Akhorahil (permanent event) - Can you tap to use his ability after you make a body check roll that ties an opponent's character's body in order to eliminate the character? IF NOT, does this card see play as a permanent event and if so, what types of scenarios is it used in?

No; if you tap him after the dice roll, the roll has already happened and the character's body will not have been modified.

5) Storing Items - If I have a character who is carrying 3 items and he wants to store them all at a
haven, does he have to pass 3 separate corruption checks (with reduced corruption points after
each item is stored)? Or can he make a single corruption check and store all 3 at once after
passing?

A separate corruption check for each item.

6) Roac the Raven - I can play Lordly Presence on him when attempting to bring in a faction, correct?

What if I am not using Roac's special ability to bring in the faction, but using a different
character for the influence attempt....can I still play a Lordly Presence if Roac is my only diplomat in the company? Or does the influencing character have to be a diplomat?

Finally, can I play A Friend or Three on Roac while attempting to bring in a faction?

Unique. Playable at any site in Northern Rhovanion. Tap and discard to attempt to bring any faction into play - treat this influence check as though it were made by a diplomat.

Diplomat only. +5 to an influence check against a faction. If the influence check is successful, draw a card.

For every character in the influencing character's company, A Friend or Three gives a +1 modification to an influence check or to a corruption check made by a character in the same company.

You can play Lordly Presence because all it requires is a diplomat, not a character. However, A Friend Or Three requires an influencing character, which Roac is not -- he is an ally.

7) Buthrakaur the Green - his ability permits an unlimited amount of hazard creatures to be played after him who qualify, correct? This is even if the attack by Buthrakaur has been cancelled, correct?

Yes.

8] Am I correct that you do not have to enter the site (and face automatic attacks) in order to play
cards like The Windlord Found Me, Dreams of Lore, or any other non-item, non-faction, non-ally cards which don't specify that you must enter the site to play them?

No, you are not correct. To play any resource in the site phase, you must first face the automatic-attacks by entering the site.

9) Direct Influence - Thrain II is controlling a 5 mind dwarf which uses all of his available direct influence (2 points of general and 3 points specific towards dwarves and dwarf factions). If he attempts to bring in a dwarf faction, will he get the +3 towards factions (stated using the word AND in his text) or will he get no bonus because the influence is currently being used to control a follower?

If he was instead controlling a 3 mind character dwarf, does he have 2 points of unrestricted DI
available while using all of his restricted DI? OR must he first use his 2 points of unrestricted
DI and 1 point of restricted, which leaves 2 points left available that may only be used for
dwarves and dwarf factions?

Unlike Thrain II which uses the word AND in his card text, the card Elf-stone uses OR: "+2 direct influence used against an Elf character or an Elf faction." Due to the word "OR" which is used, am I correct in guessing that if the direct influence is being used to control an Elf, that you can not also use the +2 bonus to influence an Elf faction?

Being debated in another thread. I personally believe they are separate bonuses; the majority favors a single bonus to be divided among all sources.

10) The Moon is Dead - states that "All Undead attacks receive +1 strike and +1 prowess.
All Undead automatic attacks are duplicated. Discard this card when an undead attack is
defeated." So my question is this: if I defeat the first automatic attack (and thus The Moon is
Dead is discarded), does the second (duplicate) automatic attack still exist and have to be faced?
If so, does this second automatic attack still get the +1 strike and +1 prowess bonuses?

The second does not still exist, just as there is no more wolf attack if Fell Winter is discarded.

11) Dragon's Hunger - My opponent has one left against the hazard limit and starts a chain of effects
by playing Bairanax Ahunt, who immediately attacks my company traveling through Anduin
Vales. May I respond to this attack by playing Dragon's Hunger?

If yes, then my opponent responds to my Dragon's Hunger by discarding a hazard creature from
his hand (mandatory, and counts against the hazard limit). Once we start resolving this chain
of effects and get back to the attack by Bairanax Ahunt, my opponent has already reached the
hazard limit (when he discarded the creature card), so does the attack by Bairanax now fizzle?

If so, after I announce my Dragon's Hunger, could my opponent immediately respond by
tapping his Power Built By Waiting to increase the hazard limit and make sure his Bairanax
attack doesn't fizzle upon resolution?

Slight correction -- Bairanax Ahunt creates a passive condition; the attack would only be declared in the next chain of effects after the card play action of the card resolves. Thus, it is impossible to use Dragon's Hunger to fizzle the card play of an Ahunt card. Or any creature card, really, as the card must resolve before the attack is created, and Dragon's Hunger can only be played once you are facing the attack.

12) On-Guard - Is there a limit to the number of on-guard cards you can play on a given site (and that can be revealed) during a turn?

Play: one card per company moving to/at the site; no limit on the number revealed.

13) Tolfalas - Why does Tolfalas have the errata “Scroll of Isildur Only” for its greater items?

Because ICE used recreational drugs? See also Many-Coloured Robes and the design of Fallen Saruman in general.

14) Balrog Sites - Why does the URD say that non-Balrog decks may not use Balrog sites, but they can include certain sites in their location deck for playing hazard creatures? How is this done? Will you please give an example?

The URD does not say creatures. Prisoner-taking hazards are the prime example of sites that would be used in conjunction with hazards.

15) Align Palantir - what does “keep with the palantir” mean? Does bearer have corruption points
from both Align Palantir and the palantir itself? Or can it be played on the sage in the same
company as the bearer and thus split up the corruption points? Does sage have to tap to play this?

Sage only if a Palantir is in his company. Keep with the Palantir; bearer now has the ability to use the Palantir. Discard Align Palantir if the company carrying the Palantir moves.

Align Palantir is not played on the sage. It is kept with the Palantir and will give its CPs to whoever bears the palantir. If an event doesn't say to tap a character, you don't have to tap a character.

16) Wizard's Ring - errata says its not a ring item. This would prevent it from being used with Rumors of Rings, correct? Was there ever an explanation given for why this is not considered to be a ring item?

ICE's recreational drug use. It cannot be used with Rumors.

17) Plague - does the bearer of Plague also make a roll? Seems out of flavor if he does not.

At the end of the target's movement/hazard phase, each non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard, non-Elf character at the same site as the target must make a roll (draw a #) modified by -2.

Yes, the bearer makes the check. He's a character at the same site as himself.

18) So You've Come Back - At a haven, can the bearer split into his own company, discard this card,
then rejoin his company or a different company?

Company composition changes that you choose to make, including bringing a character into play, must all be done at the same time during the organization phase. During this time no other actions may be taken.

So, no. You split up the company, but if you take another action, such as discarding a card, then you can't make more company composition changes. This is why the hazard is so annoying, and much more readily solved by Mavels/Voices.

Jabberwocky wrote:12) On-Guard - Is there a limit to the number of on-guard cards you can play on a given site (and that can be revealed) during a turn?

During M/H phase on-guard cards are being placed, not being played.
One of practical differences is that if declared card cannot resolve it is discarded, if you declare placing of an on-guard card and there is no enough hazard limit at resolution the on-guard card is returned to hand (i.e. the action "place a card" cannot resolve, not that card [itself] cannot resolve).

16) Wizard's Ring - errata says its not a ring item. This would prevent it from being used with Rumors of Rings, correct? Was there ever an explanation given for why this is not considered to be a ring item?

My opinion, which is usually rarely agreed btw so I am not a source of guidance, is for thematical purposes.
The only wizard I know with a ring he made is Saruman. No wizard will think of losing or giving that ring to anyone, so in a way
the ring is no longer an "item" but apart of the wizard since that wizard has poured some of his own essence into it as did Sauron.


But a clever gamer, not me, noted the Wizard Ring can be used for Tower Raided.

Sincere thanks for answering all of my questions!

Sorry for my delay in following up, but I've been rather busy. I do have a few follow up questions to your answers posted below:

A character removed from the control of direct influence outside the organization phase does not need to be controlled by general influence until that player's next organization phase.

Rules Erratum: You may play a character even if you do not have enough influence to control them. However, if there are any characters you do not have the influence to control at the end of your organization phase, the character you brought into play this turn must be returned to your hand.

DISCARDING CHARACTERS
Instead of bringing a new character into play during your organization phase, you may discard a character that is at a Darkhaven or at his home site. Your Ringwraith may not be discarded. You must take this action when you are forced to discard a character due to a lack of available influence. In this case, the character(s) need not be at a Darkhaven.

I apparently assumed that characters were bounced back to the hand when unable to meet GI requirements, now I see they are discarded instead (unless they were played that turn), this is good to know. So if I'm reading the rule you posted correctly, you can EITHER discard OR play 1 character during your organization phase. So my opponent plays a Rebel Talk on one of my characters during my M/H phase, then on my next Organization phase I announce that same character is being discarded. After discarding him, I am now NOT allowed to play a new character from my hand because I have already discarded a character that turn, correct?

What if I play a new character first from my hand during my Organization phase? Let's say I have Elrond, Elrohir and Glorfindel. Elrond was controlling Elrohir, but my opponent played a Rebel Talk on him, so now everyone is out in my GI and my current GI tally is 22. I now play Elladan from my hand under Elrond's DI. At the end of my organization phase, I must fix my GI problem, but Elladan who I played this turn isn't hurting my GI, he is under DI, so would I now be able to keep Elladan in play and then discard Elrohir with the Rebel-Talk to fix my GI exceedence?

Akhorahil (permanent event) - Can you tap to use his ability after you make a body check roll that ties an opponent's character's body in order to eliminate the character? IF NOT, does this card see play as a permanent event and if so, what types of scenarios is it used in?

Bandobras Took wrote: No; if you tap him after the dice roll, the roll has already happened and the character's body will not have been modified.

Ok thanks, but I could tap Akhorahil after the combat roll which wounds the character but before the body check roll, correct?

Am I correct that you do not have to enter the site (and face automatic attacks) in order to play cards like The Windlord Found Me, Dreams of Lore, or any other non-item, non-faction, non-ally cards which don't specify that you must enter the site to play them?

Bandobras Took wrote:No, you are not correct. To play any resource in the site phase, you must first face the automatic-attacks by entering the site.

So I found the following excerpt from the MELE rule book (bolding mine):

Certain resource cards may only be played if specific required conditions exist. A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site. In addition, the company must face any automatic-attacks located at the same site before such a card can be played. Resource events do not generally require an untapped site nor that the automatic-attack to be faced. This may vary based upon specific card text.

So I read this rule to mean that non item, ally, faction resources played do not tap the site and do not require auto-attacks to be faced, unless specifically mentioned otherwise. Your answer to my question above contradicts this. Was there a later rule revision which over-turned the above rule from MELE?

11) Dragon's Hunger - My opponent has one left against the hazard limit and starts a chain of effects by playing Bairanax Ahunt, who immediately attacks my company traveling through Anduin
Vales. May I respond to this attack by playing Dragon's Hunger?

If yes, then my opponent responds to my Dragon's Hunger by discarding a hazard creature from
his hand (mandatory, and counts against the hazard limit). Once we start resolving this chain
of effects and get back to the attack by Bairanax Ahunt, my opponent has already reached the
hazard limit (when he discarded the creature card), so does the attack by Bairanax now fizzle?

If so, after I announce my Dragon's Hunger, could my opponent immediately respond by
tapping his Power Built By Waiting to increase the hazard limit and make sure his Bairanax
attack doesn't fizzle upon resolution?

Bandobras Took wrote: Slight correction -- Bairanax Ahunt creates a passive condition; the attack would only be declared in the next chain of effects after the card play action of the card resolves. Thus, it is impossible to use Dragon's Hunger to fizzle the card play of an Ahunt card. Or any creature card, really, as the card must resolve before the attack is created, and Dragon's Hunger can only be played once you are facing the attack.

Ok, so just to be clear....any hazard creature played resolves completely BEFORE the attack actually happens? Thus it is impossible to ever fizzle an attack by a creature?

Jabberwocky wrote:I now play Elladan from my hand under Elrond's DI. At the end of my organization phase, I must fix my GI problem, but Elladan who I played this turn isn't hurting my GI, he is under DI, so would I now be able to keep Elladan in play and then discard Elrohir with the Rebel-Talk to fix my GI exceedence?

You not only are able to keep Elladan. You cannot discard him, because there is enough (direct) influence to control him. You must discard Elrohir, or Elrond, or Glorfindel.

Jabberwocky wrote:Ok thanks, but I could tap Akhorahil after the combat roll which wounds the character but before the body check roll, correct?

CRF, Turn Sequence, Combat, Strike Sequence wrote:Annotation 19: Following each successful strike or failed strike, a body check must
be rolled (unless the failed strike has no body). However, if the strike calls for any
special actions to follow it (e.g., a character wounded by "William" may be required
to discard his items), these special actions are resolved before the body check. The
body check is the first declared action in a nested chain of effects that immediately
follows the strike dice-roll and special actions resulting from the strike. Other actions
may be declared in response to a body check, in the same chain of effects, but these
are limited to those actions that directly affect the body check dice- roll. E.g., Tookish
Blood could not be declared in response to the body check caused by Giant Spiders
wounding a Hobbit. No action may be declared in response to a special action
resulting from a strike unless the special action is a dice-rolling action, i.e., a special
action is generally considered synonymous with the strike dice-roll. If the special
action is a dice-rolling action, an action may be declared in response to it if the action
directly affects the dice-roll.

Underline mine.

CRF, Rulings by Term, Body Check wrote:"Affecting the body check" includes modifying the die roll or the body of the
character making the check.

CRF, Turn Sequence, Combat, Strike Sequence allows for actions that directly affect the body check dice- roll. Actions that affect a body check by affecting body attribute are not allowed. There are few of actions that directly affect a body check dice- roll* .

Jabberwocky wrote:So I read this rule to mean that non item, ally, faction resources played do not tap the site and do not require auto-attacks to be faced, unless specifically mentioned otherwise. Your answer to my question above contradicts this. Was there a later rule revision which over-turned the above rule from MELE?

CRF, Turn Sequence, Site Phase, General wrote:Play of an ally, item, faction, or resource card which will normally tap the site must be
after the company resolves all automatic, agent and on-guard creature attacks.

CRF, Turn Sequence, Site Phase, General wrote:A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all
automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack.
Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it, although cancelling does.

The Windlord Found Me, Dreams of Lore, are both a company's actions and a resources that tap a site.

Jabberwocky wrote:Ok, so just to be clear....any hazard creature played resolves completely BEFORE the attack actually happens? Thus it is impossible to ever fizzle an attack by a creature?

Not sure what you mean by "resolves completely". Once a card starts resolving it is too late to fizzle it, even if players may play something in middle of its resolution (they can if action is attack or strike). You can (try to) fizzle a card (or action) before it starts resolving. Dragon's Hunger is useless for such task. You can reduce hazard limit e.g. by Many Turns and Doublings played in response to declaration of hazard (action that counts against hazard limit). You can try to remove playability condition of card - e.g. by changing a site type, or site's site path, or company's site path.



*)

Spawn of Ungoliant wrote:Unique. Spawn. The Pûkel-deeps and The Gem-deeps each have an additional attack: Spawn-3 strikes with 15/8 prowess. In addition, +1 to all body checks for Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Dúnedain, and Men resulting from Spider attacks. ...such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the sea... -LotRIV

By analogy to actions that are considered as actions that directly affect an automatic-attack: both playing and removing a cards that directly affect an automatic-attack count as actions that directly affect an automatic-attack.
So (by this analogy) I think that both playing and removing Spawn of Ungoliant is allowed in response to body check (described in text of Spawn of Ungoliant).
And (by the same logic) The Ring's Betrayal on Troth-Ring (and its bearer; both are targets) is allowed.

Troth-ring wrote:Mind Ring. -1 to mind to a minimum of 1, -1 to all body checks against bearer. Cannot be duplicated on a given character. Those who hunger for dominion are themselves enslaved. Power makes a dangerous support.-Kuduk Lore

The Ring's Betrayal wrote:The bearer of a Ring must make a corruption check modified by -2. If the bearer fails this corruption check, his Ring is discarded, but he remains in play. Isildur was marching north along the east banks of the river... He leapt into the waters, but the Ring slipped from his finger as he swam, and then the Orcs saw him and killed him with arrows.-LotRI

Konrad Klar wrote:

Jabberwocky wrote:I now play Elladan from my hand under Elrond's DI. At the end of my organization phase, I must fix my GI problem, but Elladan who I played this turn isn't hurting my GI, he is under DI, so would I now be able to keep Elladan in play and then discard Elrohir with the Rebel-Talk to fix my GI exceedence?

You not only are able to keep Elladan. You cannot discard him, because there is enough (direct) influence to control him. You must discard Elrohir, or Elrond, or Glorfindel.

CRF wrote:Playing Characters

Rules Erratum: You may play a character even if you do not have enough influence to control them. However, if there are any characters you do not have the influence to control at the end of your organization phase, the character you brought into play this turn must be returned to your hand.

As the rule notes, whether you have enough influence to control Elladan is irrelevant. You have to return the character you played this turn to your hand if there are any characters you do not have the influence to control at the end of your organization phase.

A hazard does not create an attack until the play of the card resolves in the chain of effects. So once you are actually facing an attack, it is indeed to late to "fizzle."

Rules Erratum: You may play a character even if you do not have enough influence to control them. However, if there are any characters you do not have the influence to control at the end of your organization phase, the character you brought into play this turn must be returned to your hand.

So I was wrong saying "You not only are able to keep Elladan.". I was not wrong saying "You cannot discard him," (at worst: "you must return him to hand").

However a player still must discard Elrohir, or Elrond, or Glorfindel according to "You must take this action when you are forced to discard a character due to a lack of available influence. In this case, the character(s) need not be at a Darkhaven." and rules do not specify order of that two actions.
If a player will decide to discard Elrohir, or Elrond, or Glorfindel first then he will have enough influence to control a characters and situation "there are any characters you do not have the influence to control at the end of your organization phase" will cease to exist.

Almost correct. If a player discards a character, then this rule applies:

DISCARDING CHARACTERS
Instead of bringing a new character into play during your organization phase, you may discard a character that is at a Darkhaven or at his home site.

If you discard a character first, you do not have the option to play a character, unless you use a card such as Chance Meeting.

(The Balrog is an obvious exception, but this is example is concerned with heroes. )

Perfect! I agree.

Ok, wow, this is giving me a headache! Lol, good thing I really love this game or else I would just ditch it and play something that isn't so confusing and complex with its rules.

Thanks again Konrad and Bandobras for your help. It will be too cumbersome for me to attempt to quote everything from above, so I'm just going to respond directly to each topic here. I will quote a few items which are easy to. I want to make sure that I completely am clear with what you guys are saying so that I can apply the rules correctly during game play.

#1) AKHORAHIL -
Konrad, if I am reading and understanding your quote and underline correctly, you are saying that Akhorahil can NOT be used after the strike roll and before the body check roll because Akhorahil's effect modifies the "body of the character" but does not modify the "body-check dice roll." Am I understanding you correctly here?

It almost seems to me like the 2 CRF rulings you quoted contradict each other.

If in fact this is correct and Akhorahil cannot be used during combat, it seems his ability is rather worthless. How do you think the game designers intended this card to be used? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that they intended Akhorahil to be playable during combat, but later rule clarifications (CRF) retroactively prevented his ability to be used (even though those CRF rules were general in nature and not meant to directly ruin this card). I would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on this subject.

#2) AUTO-ATTACKS for RESOURCE CARDS -
So the rule I quoted from the MELE rules book:

Certain resource cards may only be played if specific required conditions exist. A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site. In addition, the company must face any automatic-attacks located at the same site before such a card can be played. Resource events do not generally require an untapped site nor that the automatic-attack to be faced. This may vary based upon specific card text.

Was this rule just completely overturned with the later CRF rulings quoted above? Because the MELE rule book and CRF seem to contradict each other.

In the case of The Windlord Found Me... you would first enter the site and face all auto-attacks, and then you would tap the site and play TWFM and face the additional Orc attack of 4 strikes with 9 prowess, correct?

#3) FIZZLING AN ATTACK -

A hazard does not create an attack until the play of the card resolves in the chain of effects. So once you are actually facing an attack, it is indeed to late to "fizzle."

Ok, this makes sense and I think sums it up pretty well. Thanks Bandobras! Thanks Konrad as well for your additional examples which help clarify this subject.

#4) GI/DI and PLAYING/DISCARDING CHARACTERS -

Bandobras Took wrote:Almost correct. If a player discards a character, then this rule applies:

DISCARDING CHARACTERS
Instead of bringing a new character into play during your organization phase, you may discard a character that is at a Darkhaven or at his home site.

If you discard a character first, you do not have the option to play a character, unless you use a card such as Chance Meeting.

I'm confused. I am playing a character at the beginning of my Organization phase, thus Elladan has ALREADY been played once we look at possibly discarding characters. So what are you saying here? I've already played a character earlier in my organization phase (Elladan under Elrond's DI). Now at the end of my organization phase I'm faced with a problem... my characters exceed my allowed 20 GI. How is this problem resolved? Are you saying that because ANY characters exceed my allowed GI, the character played during my organization must first be returned to hand (Elladan - even though he's completely unrelated to the GI problem)? If so, does this action take place first and then following it I MUST discard a character to resolve the GI problem? So Elladan must be returned to hand and then Elrohir, Elrond or Glorfindel discarded?

It seems to me that this rule below is being strictly followed here, but the DI situation above with Elladan is clearly not what this rule was trying to address.

CRF wrote:
Playing Characters
Rules Erratum: You may play a character even if you do not have enough influence to control them. However, if there are any characters you do not have the influence to control at the end of your organization phase, the character you brought into play this turn must be returned to your hand.

Thanks again guys! I'm trying to get to the bottom of all these confusing rules, but it isn't easy. Your help is greatly appreciated.

Jabberwocky wrote:#1) AKHORAHIL -
[...]
It almost seems to me like the 2 CRF rulings you quoted contradict each other.

Affecting a body check dice-roll is a subset of affecting a body check. So I do not see a contradiction.

Tapping of Akhorahil may take place during combat - before strikes are assigned, or between strike sequences.
Players are very limited with that what they can do during strike sequence and what they can declare in response to a body check. Tapping of Akhorahil does not fit in that limits. Using (discarding) of Miruvor does not fit too.

Jabberwocky wrote:#2) AUTO-ATTACKS for RESOURCE CARDS -
[...]
Was this rule just completely overturned with the later CRF rulings quoted above? Because the MELE rule book and CRF seem to contradict each other.

Some restrictions have been added by CRF and some information from relevant MELE paragraph have been repeated. Where you see a contradiction?

Jabberwocky wrote:In the case of The Windlord Found Me... you would first enter the site and face all auto-attacks, and then you would tap the site and play TWFM and face the additional Orc attack of 4 strikes with 9 prowess, correct?

.. you would first enter the site and face all auto-attacks, agent and on-guard creature attacks.
Then you do not have to tap the site. The Windlord Found Me will do it itself (if you will play the card and the card will resolve).

The second sentence in the rule I quoted does not depend on the first.

It describes two things:

1) The ability to play a character without having enough influence to control them, and
2) What happens if, at the end of the organization phase, you do not have the ability to control all your characters.

This is a rules erratum to the following in the MELE rulebook:

You may play a non-Ringwraith character card. You must place him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site. If you do not have enough general influence or direct influence to control the character by the end of your organization phase, then the character is returned to your hand. You must place him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site.

If there were not an erratum to the rule, then Elladan would be able to remain in play, because you do have enough influence to control the character you played. Note the phrasing in the second sentence:

. . . if there are any characters you do not have the influence to control at the end of your organization phase . . .

The changed rule focuses on whether there are any of your characters you cannot control, rather than looking simply at whether the character you played is controlled. One of the intents of the rule change, presumably, was to prevent cases of playing a character and discarding a different character in the same turn.

The card A Chance Meeting can be used to discard a character and then play a character within the same organization phase.

Bandobras Took wrote:The second sentence in the rule I quoted does not depend on the first.

It describes two things:

1) The ability to play a character without having enough influence to control them, and
2) What happens if, at the end of the organization phase, you do not have the ability to control all your characters.

This is a rules erratum to the following in the MELE rulebook:

You may play a non-Ringwraith character card. You must place him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site. If you do not have enough general influence or direct influence to control the character by the end of your organization phase, then the character is returned to your hand. You must place him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site.

If there were not an erratum to the rule, then Elladan would be able to remain in play, because you do have enough influence to control the character you played. Note the phrasing in the second sentence:

. . . if there are any characters you do not have the influence to control at the end of your organization phase . . .

The changed rule focuses on whether there are any of your characters you cannot control, rather than looking simply at whether the character you played is controlled. One of the intents of the rule change, presumably, was to prevent cases of playing a character and discarding a different character in the same turn.

The card A Chance Meeting can be used to discard a character and then play a character within the same organization phase.

Ok, thanks for explaining. This now makes sense. My point was that the rule intent of bringing back a character to your hand who you cannot control with influence seemed to be "accidentally" affecting a character under DI who is controlled....all because of poor wording in the erratum rule. Since the rule wording you quoted from MELE is very clear and specific, however, it does seem that the later CRF ruling is purposefully broadening this interpretation to prevent you from playing a character under DI and then discarding a different character who exceeds GI in the same turn.

Konrad Klar wrote:

Jabberwocky wrote:#1) AKHORAHIL -
[...]
It almost seems to me like the 2 CRF rulings you quoted contradict each other.

Affecting a body check dice-roll is a subset of affecting a body check. So I do not see a contradiction.

Tapping of Akhorahil may take place during combat - before strikes are assigned, or between strike sequences.
Players are very limited with that what they can do during strike sequence and what they can declare in response to a body check. Tapping of Akhorahil does not fit in that limits. Using (discarding) of Miruvor does not fit too.

Ok, fair enough. Thanks.

Jabberwocky wrote:#2) AUTO-ATTACKS for RESOURCE CARDS -
[...]
Was this rule just completely overturned with the later CRF rulings quoted above? Because the MELE rule book and CRF seem to contradict each other.

Konrad Klar wrote: Some restrictions have been added by CRF and some information from relevant MELE paragraph have been repeated. Where you see a contradiction?

Here is where I see the contradiction:
MELE rule book:

Certain resource cards may only be played if specific required conditions exist. A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site. In addition, the company must face any automatic-attacks located at the same site before such a card can be played. Resource events do not generally require an untapped site nor that the automatic-attack to be faced. This may vary based upon specific card text.

It clearly states in the rule above that resource events (ie. The Windlord Found Me) do not require an untapped site NOR auto-attacks to be faced, unless the card text specifically says so. This contradicts this rule:

CRF, Turn Sequence, Site Phase, General wrote:
A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all
automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack.

So one rule says Resource Events don't require auto-attacks being faced or site tapping unless specifically mentioned on the card, while the other rule states that they do. This to me is a contradiction.

MELE wrote:Resource events do not generally require an untapped site nor that the automatic-attack to be faced. This may vary based upon specific card text.

Jabberwocky wrote:It clearly states in the rule above...

Just MELE does not clearly state.
MELE says that which resource events require facing AA, is "based upon specific card text". And that is true and has not been removed by CRF. But MELE does not say what in that "specific card text" is deciding about that requirement. I do not know a resource event with text like "playable after facing AA" or with similar text.
CRF specify what is deciding:

CRF wrote:Play of an ally, item, faction, or resource card which will normally tap the site must be
after the company resolves all automatic, agent and on-guard creature attacks.

(If exclude allies, items, factions, then only remaining resource cards will be events, but maybe it will change in future; onward compatibility is not bad thing).

That paragraph MELE is also silent about what can be played after facing AA but before facing agent and on-guard creature (and silent about agent and on-guard creature at all). Not mentioning X does not contradict with mentioning X (formally).

For this reasons the CRF entry may be considered as an addition, not errata.

BTW. Although to be able to play "an ally, item, faction, or resource card which will normally tap the site" a company must face "all automatic, agent and on-guard creature attacks" the company has much more of freedom after facing only AAs than before facing AAs. It is no longer limited to action that directly affect AA.

MELE wrote:Instead of bringing a new character into play during your organization phase, you may discard a character that is at a Darkhaven or at his home site. Your Ringwraith may not be discarded. You must take this action when you are forced to discard a character due to a lack of available influence. In this case, the characters need not be at a Darkhaven.

Underline mine.

For this reason the whole scenario "What if I play a new character first from my hand during my Organization phase?" is not valid. In organization phase you may either play a character, or discard a character. If you do not have an enough influence to control a characters you must do latter. You may not do former.