Council of Elrond

Hey Guys,

I'm sure I could find some of my answers by digging through this forum, but I'm hoping for some quick replies for an upcoming game I will be playing. Any help is much appreciated!

1) If Cirdan (or another similar character) is eliminated, does his -3 MP penalty count against the total MPs you need to call the Free Council? I know the URD states that an eliminated avatar (using the tournament convention) of -5 MPs would negatively affect your ability to call the FC, but I would like to confirm this is the same for other characters.

2) Can Fram Framson be brought into play away from his home site using "A Chance Meeting"? My guess is Yes, because it clearly says it can bring Hobbits in, so I would think Fram would fall into a similar ruling, but I just want to make sure.

3) Are Lindon and Cardolan adjacent regions? What about Arthedain and Elven Shore? Horse Plains and Nurn?

4) I know the rules state that followers can not have their own followers. But can a follower character bring in an Ally? Or is this considered a violation of the follower not having a follower rule?

5) Can resource events be played during phases other than Movement Hazard/Site phases without the card specifically allowing it? For example, can I play a Marvel's Told during my Untap or Organization phase? If so, and my opponent responds by activating a Nazgul permanent event ability, how does using the Nazgul ability affect the hazard limit of the upcoming M/H phase? Does it still count against it? Additionally, if I tap a sage to use Marvel's Told and my sage is also carrying Cram, can I untap him with cram and ditch the cram before making the corruption check?

6) Even though I read and re-read the rules regarding cards playable on an Automatic Attack, I'm still a little confused. So a card like Risky Blow cannot be played against an Automatic Attack, is this correct?

7) The URD specifies 4 different types of movement: Starter, Region, Under-Deeps and Special. It specifically mentions that Forod (and other similar cards) are considered to be in the special movement category. I just want to confirm that if I'm playing the game using Region movement but using a map (not actual region cards), that I am still legally able to play cards like Forod, etc. Is this correct? I don't understand why these cards specifically say they can only be used by a player moving without region cards. Using a map is "in lieu of" region cards so pretty much the same thing. Please help me understand this.

8] A Dwarven Ring doesn't require me to enter a site and face automatic attacks OR tap the site when using its special ability does it? The card just states "Tap a Dwarf bearer to search your play deck for a major item playable at the bearer's site. Play this item immediately or discard." So can I use this ability during any phase of play? Can I stay at the same site turn after turn and use the ability each turn?

9) Facing an attack from Slayer, can the character facing the attack tap himself to cancel the first attack, and then face the second attack at a -1 penalty?

10) Do allies face a strike from Watcher in the Water? The card states "each character", but aren't allies considered to be characters for the purposes of combat?

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE HELP!!

Jabberwocky wrote:1) If Cirdan (or another similar character) is eliminated, does his -3 MP penalty count against the total MPs you need to call the Free Council? I know the URD states that an eliminated avatar (using the tournament convention) of -5 MPs would negatively affect your ability to call the FC, but I would like to confirm this is the same for other characters.

Yes.

2) Can Fram Framson be brought into play away from his home site using "A Chance Meeting"? My guess is Yes, because it clearly says it can bring Hobbits in, so I would think Fram would fall into a similar ruling, but I just want to make sure.

Yes.

3) Are Lindon and Cardolan adjacent regions? What about Arthedain and Elven Shore? Horse Plains and Nurn?

When all else fails, look at the Region Cards themselves, which list their adjacent regions. No. No. Yes.

4) I know the rules state that followers can not have their own followers. But can a follower character bring in an Ally? Or is this considered a violation of the follower not having a follower rule?

Allies are never controlled by direct influence and can therefore never be followers. An ally's mind stat is used strictly in the case of influence attempts against the ally.

5) Can resource events be played during phases other than Movement Hazard/Site phases without the card specifically allowing it? For example, can I play a Marvel's Told during my Untap or Organization phase? If so, and my opponent responds by activating a Nazgul permanent event ability, how does using the Nazgul ability affect the hazard limit of the upcoming M/H phase? Does it still count against it? Additionally, if I tap a sage to use Marvel's Told and my sage is also carrying Cram, can I untap him with cram and ditch the cram before making the corruption check?

You can play resources whenever appropriate. The only restrictions have to do with facing automatic-attacks; there, you may not use events to remove the automatic-attack.
Your opponent cannot respond by activating a Nazgul unless it is the movement/hazard phase, as this is the only time hazards can be played or you can choose to initiate hazard actions in a chain of effects. If a hazard may be used in another way, it will indicate on the card. Note that hazards with passive conditions and/or continuing effects can be triggered/applied at any time, but activating a Nazgul is, as the term suggests, an Action.

6) Even though I read and re-read the rules regarding cards playable on an Automatic Attack, I'm still a little confused. So a card like Risky Blow cannot be played against an Automatic Attack, is this correct?

Risky Blow is playable during the strike sequence because it modifies the prowess of the character facing the strike. The intent of the rule is that you must face the automatic-attack before accomplishing anything else at the site. A recent rules revision by the CoE allows the play of cards that affect strike assignment, which were originally excluded by rule.

When facing an automatic attack, you may play:
Cards that cancel the attack;
Cards that modify the prowess/body/strikes of the attack;
Cards that alter strike assignment; and
Cards that affect an individual strike.

The biggest thing you cannot play while facing an auto-attack is Rebuild the Town, as removing the auto-attack is specifically forbidden.

7) The URD specifies 4 different types of movement: Starter, Region, Under-Deeps and Special. It specifically mentions that Forod (and other similar cards) are considered to be in the special movement category. I just want to confirm that if I'm playing the game using Region movement but using a map (not actual region cards), that I am still legally able to play cards like Forod, etc. Is this correct? I don't understand why these cards specifically say they can only be used by a player moving without region cards. Using a map is "in lieu of" region cards so pretty much the same thing. Please help me understand this.

While a map is allowed for convenience, it is not a part of the official game rules. When ICE referred to using region cards, they usually meant using Region Movement. In the case of Forod, this merely means that by using the card you don't have to travel through each intervening region on the map.

8] A Dwarven Ring doesn't require me to enter a site and face automatic attacks OR tap the site when using its special ability does it? The card just states "Tap a Dwarf bearer to search your play deck for a major item playable at the bearer's site. Play this item immediately or discard." So can I use this ability during any phase of play? Can I stay at the same site turn after turn and use the ability each turn?

The current rulings suggest that the item must still be played during the site phase. You may use the ability of the Dwarven Ring at any time, but if not during the site phase, the item will be automatically discarded. Also, since play of the item will tap the site, you would need to untap the site each turn.

9) Facing an attack from Slayer, can the character facing the attack tap himself to cancel the first attack, and then face the second attack at a -1 penalty?

Indeed.

10) Do allies face a strike from Watcher in the Water? The card states "each character", but aren't allies considered to be characters for the purposes of combat?

Yes, unless the ally may not face/be assigned strikes.

1) If Cirdan (or another similar character) is eliminated, does his -3 MP penalty count against the total MPs you need to call the Free Council?

- 3 MPs counts against character MPs, not against total (uncategorized) MPs, like - 5 MPs from eliminated Wizard. The difference does not affect calling the Free Council, but affects how MPs are calculated at Free Council.

5) Can resource events be played during phases other than Movement Hazard/Site phases without the card specifically allowing it? For example, can I play a Marvel's Told during my Untap or Organization phase? If so, and my opponent responds by activating a Nazgul permanent event ability, how does using the Nazgul ability affect the hazard limit of the upcoming M/H phase? Does it still count against it? Additionally, if I tap a sage to use Marvel's Told and my sage is also carrying Cram, can I untap him with cram and ditch the cram before making the corruption check?

Resource short-event and permanent-event may be played in any phase of player's turn if its text does not provide additional restrictions (or allowances).
Reason for which you cannot activate a Nazgul permanent-event ability outside of M/H phase is just lack of hazard limit.
(I have no idea what is the "Action" Bandobras is talking about).

About Marvels Told then Cram combo:
You can use both in the same chain of effects.

At declaration:
1. Marvels Told (tapping a sage immediately - tapping the sage is active condition of MT).
2. Discard Cram (does not untap sage immediately - discarding Cram an active condition - untapping of character is so-called "main effect" - that will happen at resolution).

At resolution:
2. Sage becomes untapped.
1. Because:

CRF, Ruling by Term, Active Conditions wrote:Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main
effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may
not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the
action's declaration, i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the
action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is
canceled.

Underline mine.
Marvels Told will not resolve.

So although it is legal, final effect will be spoiling of Marvels Told. However if action #2 would be discarding for effect some other item that does not untap/wound/remove sage from active play, e.g. Potion of Prowess, then it would work. I guess that reason of discarding was to reduce CPs of sage.

7) The URD specifies 4 different types of movement: Starter, Region, Under-Deeps and Special. It specifically mentions that Forod (and other similar cards) are considered to be in the special movement category. I just want to confirm that if I'm playing the game using Region movement but using a map (not actual region cards), that I am still legally able to play cards like Forod, etc. Is this correct? I don't understand why these cards specifically say they can only be used by a player moving without region cards. Using a map is "in lieu of" region cards so pretty much the same thing. Please help me understand this

Text of Forod refer to the company moving without region cards, not to the player(s) not using region cards.

Konrad Klar wrote:

1) If Cirdan (or another similar character) is eliminated, does his -3 MP penalty count against the total MPs you need to call the Free Council?

- 3 MPs counts against character MPs, not against total (uncategorized) MPs, like - 5 MPs from eliminated Wizard. The difference does not affect calling the Free Council, but affects how MPs are calculated at Free Council.

CRF, Tournaments wrote:The -5 MPs apply immediately, and affect your MPs for calling the end of the game.

Resource short-event and permanent-event may be played in any phase of player's turn if its text does not provide additional restrictions (or allowances).
Reason for which you cannot activate a Nazgul permanent-event ability outside of M/H phase is just lack of hazard limit.
(I have no idea what is the "Action" Bandobras is talking about).

MELE Rules wrote:You may play hazard cards only during your opponent's movement/hazard phase.

The hazard limit describes how many hazards and/or actions which count against the hazard limit may be declared and resolved during a given company's movement/hazard phase. It does not serve as a limiter on the playing hazards during other phases. The rule I quoted above is what does that.

Tapping a Nazgul is done to declare an action. By rule and card text, it must be done during the movement/hazard phase. I apologize if my earlier explanation caused confusion.

CRF, Tournaments wrote wrote:The -5 MPs apply immediately, and affect your MPs for calling the end of the game.

Right. By " The difference [that] does not affect calling the Free Council, but affects how MPs are calculated at Free Council." I mean a difference between - 5 MPs total (from eliminated avatar) and - 3 character MPs (from eliminated Cirdan). That difference does not affect ability of calling the Council, because category to which that MPs belong does not matter at that point; only how much MPs player has does matter.

By rule and card text, it must be done during the movement/hazard phase.

Right. Overlooked.

First, thanks to both of you very much for taking the time to respond to my questions!

I just have a couple follow up questions to make sure I am crystal clear:

RE: Question #1) So if I'm playing a Quick game (first to 20 MPs can call the Council) and both my Avatar and Cirdan have been eliminated during play, then I will essentially need to have accumulated 28 MPs to call the Council. 28 because I have to make up for -3 from Cirdan and -5 from my Avatar. Once the Council has been called, Cirdan's -3 will affect my total "Character" group MPs but my Avatar's -5 will not. No more than half of my net MPs may come from any one category (ie. character). So after Cirdan's -3 is factored in, I still cannot have more than 10 character MPs in this scenario. Do I have this correct?

RE: Question #4) Ok, thanks. So the answer to my question is Yes then. An Ally is not a follower and there is nothing that prevents a follower from controlling other entities as long as the other entity isn't a follower. Correct?

RE: Question #6) Ok, so Risky Blow and pretty much everything else is LEGAL to play during automatic attacks. The only thing I really can't play is a card which REMOVES the auto-attack. Correct?

RE: Question #8) Ok, this seems a bit complicated. So if I use the ability at any time other than the site phase, I just have to discard the item. So I could use it essentially during my organization phase to thin out an unwanted item from my deck, but I can only play the item if I use this ability during my site phase. With that said.... what exactly is causing the site to tap? Just the fact that I played a resource? But do I have to ENTER the site and face automatic attacks if I want to use this ability? To me, the way the dwarven rings are worded, it seems to be a bypass for entering the site and facing automatic attacks. So I have to tap the site when I play the item, but I don't have to enter the site and face auto-attacks. Is this correct, or am I wrong about this?

Once again, a great many thanks to the both of you for taking the time to make such excellent responses!

Jabberwocky wrote:First, thanks to both of you very much for taking the time to respond to my questions!

I just have a couple follow up questions to make sure I am crystal clear:

RE: Question #1) So if I'm playing a Quick game (first to 20 MPs can call the Council) and both my Avatar and Cirdan have been eliminated during play, then I will essentially need to have accumulated 28 MPs to call the Council. 28 because I have to make up for -3 from Cirdan and -5 from my Avatar. Once the Council has been called, Cirdan's -3 will affect my total "Character" group MPs but my Avatar's -5 will not. No more than half of my net MPs may come from any one category (ie. character). So after Cirdan's -3 is factored in, I still cannot have more than 10 character MPs in this scenario. Do I have this correct?

CRF wrote:To calculate marshalling points at the Free Council, follow these steps:
1) Total up the marshalling points for each category. The modifications from My Precious, factions played on a leader, and eliminated characters apply now.
2) If your opponent has no points in a category then double your points in that category. Doubling does not apply to the Miscellaneous or Kill categories.
3) If one of your categories accounts for more than half of your positive marshalling point total, reduce it so that it has the same number of points as the rest of your positive categories combined.
4) Subtract any points that are subtracted from your total, including points from unique resources your opponent has duplicated in his hand.

The -MPs from eliminated characters are applied during step one, even if the MPs in question are not character MPs, so far as I understand.

RE: Question #4) Ok, thanks. So the answer to my question is Yes then. An Ally is not a follower and there is nothing that prevents a follower from controlling other entities as long as the other entity isn't a follower. Correct?

Correct.

RE: Question #6) Ok, so Risky Blow and pretty much everything else is LEGAL to play during automatic attacks. The only thing I really can't play is a card which REMOVES the auto-attack. Correct?

Close. Before playing a resource playable at the site (e.g. Ally, Item, Faction, etc.), the automatic attack(s) must first be faced.

RE: Question #8) Ok, this seems a bit complicated. So if I use the ability at any time other than the site phase, I just have to discard the item. So I could use it essentially during my organization phase to thin out an unwanted item from my deck, but I can only play the item if I use this ability during my site phase. With that said.... what exactly is causing the site to tap? Just the fact that I played a resource? But do I have to ENTER the site and face automatic attacks if I want to use this ability? To me, the way the dwarven rings are worded, it seems to be a bypass for entering the site and facing automatic attacks. So I have to tap the site when I play the item, but I don't have to enter the site and face auto-attacks. Is this correct, or am I wrong about this?

Once again, a great many thanks to the both of you for taking the time to make such excellent responses!

The idea is (with a few individual exceptions) that card play must follow the rules unless otherwise noted. The Dwarven Ring allows you to search through your play deck and play an item. Thus, it follows the normal rules for playing an item. These include it being the site phase, entering the site, having an untapped site/character, tapping them when the item is played, etc. Compare with cards such as War-Forges (from the White Hand set) that specifically allow you to play an item at a tapped site. You can certainly use a Dwarven Ring to thin out your deck if you are so inclined.

RE: Question #1) So if I'm playing a Quick game (first to 20 MPs can call the Council) and both my Avatar and Cirdan have been eliminated during play, then I will essentially need to have accumulated 28 MPs to call the Council. 28 because I have to make up for -3 from Cirdan and -5 from my Avatar. Once the Council has been called, Cirdan's -3 will affect my total "Character" group MPs but my Avatar's -5 will not. No more than half of my net MPs may come from any one category (ie. character). So after Cirdan's -3 is factored in, I still cannot have more than 10 character MPs in this scenario. Do I have this correct?

(first to 20 MPs can call the Council) - anyone with 20 MPs or more can call the Council.

So after Cirdan's -3 is factored in, I still cannot have more than 10 character MPs in this scenario. Do I have this correct?
After Cirdan's -3MP is factored in, you have 25 MPs that belong to some categories and - 5 MPs that do not belong to any category.
If some single category gives you more MPs than MPs from other categories, MPs of that category will be lowered to match MPs from other categories.

25 MPs from items, 0 MPs from other categories > 0 MPs from items, 0 MPs from other categories,
18 MPs from factions, 7 MP from other categories > 7 MPs from factions, 7 MPs from other categories,
14 MPs from characters, 11 MPs from other categories > 11 MPs from characters, 11 MPs from other categories.

-5 MPs from eliminated avatar is applied at the end.

Full procedure is described below. Please note that in scenario above you may need to apply second step. I've skipped it, just because there was no information about opponent's MPs.

CRF, Turn Sequence, End-of-Game wrote:To calculate marshalling points at the Free Council, follow these steps:
• Total up the marshalling points for each category. The modifications from My
Precious, factions played on a leader, and eliminated characters apply now.
• If your opponent has no points in a category double your points in that category.
Doubling does not apply to the Miscellaneous or Kill categories.
• If one of your categories accounts for more than half of your positive marshalling
point total, reduce it so that it has the same number of points as the rest of your
positive categories combined.
• Subtract any points that are subtracted from your total, including points from
unique resources your opponent has duplicated in his hand.

RE: Question #4) Ok, thanks. So the answer to my question is Yes then. An Ally is not a follower and there is nothing that prevents a follower from controlling other entities as long as the other entity isn't a follower. Correct?

Except inability of having follower(s) a follower character is no more restricted than non-follower character.

Thanks to both of you gentlemen once again for the additional clarifications!

Bandobras Took wrote: The biggest thing you cannot play while facing an auto-attack is Rebuild the Town, as removing the auto-attack is specifically forbidden.

I am confused. I just went and read the card text on Rebuild the Town. What is the point of the card if it can't be played to remove the automatic attack? Isn't that the main purpose of the card? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.
Also, can you please point me to where in the rules it expressly forbids removing auto-attacks?

Thanks!

Bandobras Took wrote: The idea is (with a few individual exceptions) that card play must follow the rules unless otherwise noted. The Dwarven Ring allows you to search through your play deck and play an item. Thus, it follows the normal rules for playing an item. These include it being the site phase, entering the site, having an untapped site/character, tapping them when the item is played, etc. Compare with cards such as War-Forges (from the White Hand set) that specifically allow you to play an item at a tapped site. You can certainly use a Dwarven Ring to thin out your deck if you are so inclined.

One more question just to clarify....

The dwarven ring text states "Play this item immediately or discard," so does this mean you are required to enter the site and face the automatic attack before tapping the dwarf bearing the ring to use its special ability to play an item? I just want to be clear that it wouldn't be allowed to tap the dwarf first to use the ability to go get an item, then face the auto-attack with the dwarf already tapped (-1 to his prowess) and then play the item on another untapped character once the auto-attack has resolved.

That is correct; automatic attacks must first be faced. This is especially the case if the card in question says "immediately."