Ready to his will

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:13 am I think that:

All attacks of the creature are canceled. The creature becomes an ally under the control of any character in the company that now taps. are joint actions. They must be executed simultaneously. Otherwise, if they would be executed in sequence, then after canceling attacks, the creature would be discarded and it could not become an ally.

Inability of canceling the attacks prevents joint action "becomes an ally".
Seems inconsistent with your thoughts on Riddling Talk:
Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:48 pm For me an order is crucial.
Firstly a creature card is discarded, secondly attacks are "canceled".
"Canceled" before they have a chance of being faced.
For me this means "discontinued".
"Cancel" action is not invoked. Effects that prevents an invoking a "cancel" action are not applicable.
Maybe due to the fact that there is no such thing as "joint actions." The rules and rulings do not create a requirement that certain actions become "joint." Not at all. And not when positioned by some conjunctive, and certainly not when the actions are in completely different sentences.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

bosquet wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:46 am So, am I right if I take an Assasin as an ally with Ready to his will even if Forearmed is Forewarned is in play?
I understand that the effects of Forearmed are passive... so they don't trigger before RthW. The attack of the Assasin has not been cancelled, it really hasn't occured.
Ready to His Will can be used to make an Assassin an ally even if Forewarned is Forearmed is in play. This is because (A) the effect reducing the number of attacks, and making the 1 attack unable to be canceled, does trigger using passive conditions, meaning that you are able to declare and resolve Ready to His Will before FiF comes into effect. And (B) even if you let FiF resolve, just because an attack cannot be canceled doesn't mean that other non-cancellation effects are negated and cannot resolve.

(A) Forewarned is Forearmed states: "Any creature or other hazard with more than one attack is reduced to one attack of the hazard player's choice (this attack cannot be canceled)." You can tell that this operates using passive conditions because (i) there is an action and (ii) is applies to a class of entities.

(i) Creatures have attacks, usually just 1, some more. Assassin has 3 attacks. This is listed on in the card text itself. Forewarned is Forearm's effect reduces the number of attacks. This modifies an attribute of card in play, and so it is an action.
(ii) FiF's effect to reduce the number of attacks applies to any creature or other hazard with more than one attack. This applies to a class of creatures/hazards as they come into play. So clearly the action is triggered by that class (which is the passive condition).

The Timing is:
1a: Declare assassin
1b: Resolve assassin, creating 3 attacks to be faced, the attacks triggering the effect of Forewarned is Forearmed.
2a: Declare FiF's triggered action to make the attack uncancellable
2b: Declare FiF's triggered action to reduce Assassin's attacks to one attack.
2c: (Optional) Declare Ready to His Will (in response to FiF's effect).
2d: (Optional) Resolve Ready to His Will (the effects of FiF are not even in play yet)
2e: Fail to resolve FiF's triggered action to reduce Assassin's attacks to one attack. This action fails because Annotation 9 states "The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in its own chain of effects, or the action is canceled". Here the passive condition is the "Any creature with more than one attack." The creature does not exist because it is now an Ally.
2f: Fail to resolve FiF's triggered action to make the attack uncancellable. The creature created the attack. But the creature is no longer in play. Therefore, the effects of the creature (the attack) are no longer in play. An action cannot be applied to a non-existent entity.

(B) However, even if you let Forewarned is Forearmed resolve, Ready to His Will can still be played. RthW states: "All attacks of the creature are canceled. The creature becomes an ally under the control of any character in the company that now taps."

There are at least 3 different actions. One or more actions to cancel each attack, another action to make the creature become an ally, and another action to place the once-creature-now-ally under control of the character (with the character tapping as an active condition for the action of placing the ally under its control). FiF's effect of "this attack cannot be canceled" would only prevent resolution of the attack cancellation action. It does not prevent resolution of making a creature become an ally, nor does it prevent resolution of the ally being taken control of.

If Ready to His Will was intended to fail because an attack could not be canceled, it would have specified as much by stating "the creature becomes an ally, unless the attack cannot be canceled" or similar. And even if RthW did state this, the "cannot be cancelled" effect would have to already be in place. Which, as decribed above, FiF's effects would not be in play if RthW was played in response.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

CDavis7M wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:20 pm Seems inconsistent with your thoughts on Riddling Talk:
Cos you are troll and I am not.
For me an order is crucial.
Firstly a creature card is discarded, secondly attacks are "canceled".
"Canceled" before they have a chance of being faced.
For me this means "discontinued".
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:09 pm For me an order is crucial.
This is inconsistent with your statement here:
Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:13 am
bosquet wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:46 am So, am I right if I take an Assasin as an ally with Ready to his will even if Forearmed is Forewarned is in play?
In my opinion no.

Inability of canceling the attacks prevents joint action "becomes an ally".
Even assuming your position on join actions is correct, Assassin actually can be taken as an ally by Ready to his Will even if Forewarned is Forearmed is in play because Ready to His Will can be played in response to the triggered action of FiF, thereby resolving first, since order is crucial. This works the similar to playing Ready to his Will in response to the triggered action of Rank Upon Rank.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

If an inability of being cancelled would be a triggered action/effect, then it could be evaded by any cancel action declared in response.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

For the other hand, Riddling Talk can be used against Assassin and it would allow to evade its attacks even if Forearmed is Forewarned is in play.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:41 am If an inability of being cancelled would be a triggered action/effect, then it could be evaded by any cancel action declared in response.
You're misunderstanding the entire situation. First of all, I never said that "inability of being cancelled would be a triggered action/effect." An effect preventing an attack from being cancelled simply negates any cancellation effects, it is not triggered.

What I said was: "Forewarned is Forearmed states: "Any creature or other hazard with more than one attack is reduced to one attack of the hazard player's choice (this attack cannot be canceled)." You can tell that this operates using passive conditions."

The action of modifying the attack such to reduce the strikes and the action of modifying the attack so that it cannot be canceled are triggered actions. They must be triggered because they must apply to an attack meeting the (passive) conditions. But once the effect of "this attack cannot be canceled" has been triggered and resolved, there is no triggering needed to actually prevent some effect attempting to cancel that attack.

--------
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:41 am If an inability of being cancelled would be a triggered action/effect, then it could be evaded by any cancel action declared in response.
If you think about how the card actually works and how it is played you'd realize that there is no issue or any possibility of "evading." It states "Any creature or other hazard with more than one attack is reduced to one attack."

Forewarned is Forearmed's effect cannot be "evaded" because there are necessarily multiple attacks and so there will always be time for the triggered effect to be applied. If you declare a Assassin creature card when Forewarned is Forearmed is in play, and then Assassin resolves it will be a passive condition to trigger Forewarned is Forearmed. Luckily your opponent doesn't understanding timing and so they declare a cancellation effect,in response to FiF's triggered action, to cancel the first attack of Assassin that is being faced. Now the effects resolve, the first attack of Assassin is canceled, but Assassin still has attacks left over which are reduced to only being 1 attack that cannot be canceled. So your opponent has wasted their canceler for no effect. Given that, attempting to play a canceler to attempt to evade FiF seems like a non-legal play.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

I never said that:

"Any creature or other hazard with more than one attack is reduced to one attack."

is triggered.

Now I say:
Passive Conditions have nothing to do with effects of Forewarned is Forearmed, except the last:

Discard when such an isolated attack is defeated.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:46 pm I never said that:

"Any creature or other hazard with more than one attack is reduced to one attack."

is triggered.
I never implied that you said that. That's what I said several times above.
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:46 pm Now I say:
Passive Conditions have nothing to do with effects of Forewarned is Forearmed, except the last:

Discard when such an isolated attack is defeated.
You misunderstand passive conditions. I already explained why the attack reduction and non-cancellation effects must be triggered using the rules on passive conditions above. If you think it's not triggered using passive conditions, you should find a rule to support your conclusion.
CDavis7M wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:43 pm (A) Forewarned is Forearmed states: "Any creature or other hazard with more than one attack is reduced to one attack of the hazard player's choice (this attack cannot be canceled)." You can tell that this operates using passive conditions because (i) there is an action and (ii) is applies to a class of entities.

(i) Creatures have attacks, usually just 1, some more. Assassin has 3 attacks. This is listed on in the card text itself. Forewarned is Forearm's effect reduces the number of attacks. This modifies an attribute of card in play, and so it is an action.
(ii) FiF's effect to reduce the number of attacks applies to any creature or other hazard with more than one attack. This applies to a class of creatures/hazards as they come into play. So clearly the action is triggered by that class (which is the passive condition).
The rules only allow for 2 timings for applying effects: (1) Immediately at resolution or (2) triggered using passive conditions. Clearly FiF's effects are not applied immediately since there is no target. And there is no active condition to allow the player to trigger the action. But there is a passive condition established to trigger the action.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:33 pm You can tell that this operates using passive conditions because (i) there is an action and (ii) is applies to a class of entities.
I can tell, but I will not tell so.
There is no action. There is no trigger. There is an object affected by affect of Forewarned is Forearmed.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:33 pm (i) Creatures have attacks, usually just 1, some more. Assassin has 3 attacks. This is listed on in the card text itself. Forewarned is Forearmed's effect reduces the number of attacks. This modifies an attribute of card in play, and so it is an action.
No. It is an effects that exists in play as long Forewarned is Forearmed is in play.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:33 pm (ii) FiF's effect to reduce the number of attacks applies to any creature or other hazard with more than one attack. This applies to a class of creatures/hazards as they come into play. So clearly the action is triggered by that class (which is the passive condition).
See above.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:33 pm The rules only allow for 2 timings for applying effects: (1) Immediately at resolution or (2) triggered using passive conditions. Clearly FiF's effects are not applied immediately since there is no target.
Wrong. Fell Winter creates Wolves AA on any BorderHold. There may be multiple, one or no one BorderHold in play at time of resolving Fell Winter.
Each BorderHold that appears in play automatically receives Volves AA. Each creature, hazard, (hero) site wirh multiple AAs is reduced to having one attack, that cannot be cancelled. Similarly - automatically, not in result of action triggered by something.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:33 pm And there is no active condition to allow the player to trigger the action.
Obviously. Active Conditions restrict a declaring of action by player.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:12 pm There is no action. There is no trigger. There is an object affected by affect of Forewarned is Forearmed.

No. It is an effects that exists in play as long Forewarned is Forearmed is in play.

Each BorderHold that appears in play automatically receives Volves AA. Each creature, hazard, (hero) site wirh multiple AAs is reduced to having one attack, that cannot be cancelled. Similarly - automatically, not in result of action triggered by something.
No wonder you think the game has so many problems.

The game doesn't provide for things to happen in the game "automatically." Instead, the rules describe that an action is any activity in the game and that actions are resolved in a chain of effects. The "effects that exists in play as long Forewarned is Forearmed is in play" is not an effect that automatically applies attack reduction and cancellation-prevention irrespective of the timing rules (there are no rules describing such a thing). Instead, it is an effect that checks for a passive condition and triggers actions when that passive condition is satisfied.

"The various activities that you and your opponent can perform during play are called actions. A series of declared actions made in response to one another is called a "chain of effects." Passive Condition: An action that causes another action to take effect. The triggered action will be the first declared action in the chain of effects immediately following the chain of effects that contained the passive condition."

The effects of adding an automatic attack via Fell Winter and reducing multiple attacks using Forewarned is Forearmed are triggered based on some other action (e.g., a border-hold coming into play, or a creature/hazard with more than one attack coming into play).

There's no reason not to use the rules as given. They work perfectly fine. Better than any made up rule.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:12 pm Obviously. Active Conditions restrict a declaring of action by player.
We are discussing cards in play and triggered actions. Obviously you're missing my point about triggered actions on cards in play. Active conditions of effects on cards in play do not restrict actions by a player. The active conditions allow a player to satisfy that active condition in order to declare an action. That's why i said "And there is no active condition to allow the player to trigger the action."
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

10 000 $ for some car may restrict someone from buying one of the cars.
Other client may feel that he is allowed to satisfy a seller by paying him 10 000 $ for the car.


Being determines consciousness.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions & Debate (unofficial)”