Council of Elrond

Time to get an official ruling on this.

All questions asked and answered in digests just pertain to your RW and WHCtK. The crf states:

· We Have Come to Kill may be used to bring in agents, but not Ringwraiths.

A digest also did this for Wizards:

Q: May I use this card to bring my wizard in play ? And what will be the amount of his mind ?
A: No, you can't use A Chance Meeting to bring in Wizards.

Does the crf entry also pertain to RW followers or is it just in line with the digests which all refer to your RW?

Obviously if this was possible, then it would only be applicable to Khamul and The Witch-king since they're the only RWs allowed to bring in RW followers without They Ride Together.

I think that even without quoted CRF ruling playing your Ringwraith would not be possible, just because your Ringwraith is not controlled by GI nor DI. So I suspect that this ruling says about whole class of characters.

Yeah, I appreciate it's not possible with your RW. It's just it's never been asked and officially answered regards playing RW followers. Followers have a way of being played and require DI or a special ability to control.

It was ruled RW followers follow the "normal" rules for bringing characters into play (1 character per turn, org phase, etc), so it would seem strange that WHCtK would omit them given it only states "characater" on the card...

It was discussed once on meccg.net . Is ringwrait follower not a ringwraith anymore?

In the LE rules the term "Ringwraith" is used to define your Ringwraith. The person answering the digest and noting the crf pluralised both Wizard and Ringwraith. I can only imagine this is because there are multiple Wizards and Ringwraiths to select from to be your avatar...

A quote from our previous NetRep Chad Martin (taken from the lengthy discussion on Digest 105):

In other words, ICE screwed up slightly in formulating the LE rules: they didn't make it clear in the beginner's section what RW-followers count as (normal characters, your RW, something else?). It seems to me the best way to understand what's going on is to treat RW-followers along the lines of agents: they're normal characters in every respect except those explicitly mentioned in the rules.

"Rinwrait follower is a character" doees not mean he is not a ringwraith. To me this CRF entry is clear.

yup, a Ringwraith follower is still a Ringwraith (can't be corrupted, returned to hand on a body check of 7-8...)

Magic. Spirit-magic. Playable on a spirit-magic-using character in response to an influence attempt against a character, ally, or item in his company. The attempt is canceled. If the character is a Ringwraith, he can also cancel an influence attempt against any of his factions. May be played during opponent�s site phase. Unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -3.

Then just which factions are a Ringwraith Follower's factions?

Well, here's the quote from the ICE digests:

May I use this card to bring my ringwraith in play ? And what will be the amount of his mind ? May I use ACM at any time during my turn (during movement hazard phase to assign the new character a strike; will this increase the number of hazards) ? May I play a character (during organisaton phase) at any shadow-, borderhold and ruin & lairs also if the site is not in play ?
**No, We have Come to Kill can't be used to bring in a Ringwraith. The same restriction applies that you must be at the site.

Bold is my emphasis. I've not sure on timings but it's likely this is where the crf entry came from.

I'm not really arguing whether Ringwraith followers are Ringwraiths or not, rather I'm trying to determine the reasoning behind the crf entry, since there's no history of ICE dealing with, or answering, any questions of using WHCtK for RW followers. Was the crf entry aimed at Ringwraiths in general (followers included) or Ringwraiths solely in terms of them (being plural) as your avatar? If there's no history of RW followers and WHCtK I'd argue the latter.

I'm not arguing either side here, but if you can bring in RW followers with WHCTK then it certainly wouldn't be limited to The Witch-King and Khamul. All RWs can have followers using one DI per follower. The Witch-King and Khamul merely get some for free.

Wacho wrote:I'm not arguing either side here, but if you can bring in RW followers with WHCTK then it certainly wouldn't be limited to The Witch-King and Khamul. All RWs can have followers using one DI per follower. The Witch-King and Khamul merely get some for free.

Though there needs to be an ability that makes the play of the Follower legal, unless I'm mistaken -- likewise, a FW player may not use Chance Meeting to play a character with 9 mind.

Bandobras Took wrote:Then just which factions are a Ringwraith Follower's factions?

all of your factions - meaning you can use a ringwraith follower for the purposes of Poisonous Despair, even to prevent an influence attempt againt any of you factions. That's just my oppinion of course

Wacho:
unless i've missed something in the MELE rulebook only Witch-king and Khamul can play ringwraith followers. Although all rignwraiths can have ringwraith followers - but unless Witch-king or Khamul, you need to play a special resource (like They Ride Together) to actually be able to play ringwraith followers

I don't think so -- I think this would be a parallel case of carelessness on ICE's part with regards to the distinction between your RW and a RW Follower. Only an avatar can be considered to have those factions be "his."

you're probably right, but for the sake of consistency and disallowing ringwraith followers to be played with We Have Come to Kill I chose to lose this battle and agree that Poisonous Despair can be used by a Ringwriath follower to cancel an influence attempt against any of your factions

|Highwayman| wrote:you're probably right, but for the sake of consistency and disalowing ringwraith followers to be played with We Have Come to Kill i chose to lose this battale and agree that Poisonous Despair can be used by a Ringwriath follower to cancel an influence attepmt against any of your factions

I'm not sure there's any consistency to break -- only RWs are allowed to have followers that might otherwise be used as avatars.