Council of Elrond

Hello:

I believe I know the answer to that and I'll give my argument. But, could you confirm me if I am right?

Company A has three characters, one with AaU. Company B has three characters. Both companies move to the same non-haven site, company B first and company A second. I believe the character with AaU must make the corruption check for each region he moved, regardless that both companies join at the site (what makes that AaU be discarded).

My argument:

CRF says

Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.
Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts.

That means, the cc must be made at the end of the m/h phase (like Lure of Nature) but before company B is actually AT the site, meaning so that both companies still not join, and so AaU is still not dicarded. AaU should be discarded exactly at the moment when before the site phase starts. Is this right?

And, now that we are here: with the text All of his checks are modified by the number of characters in his company, is the character carrying AaU counted too, right?

ALONE AND UNADVISED ‐ Permanent‐event (C)
[CP: 4]
Corruption. Playable on a non‐Wizard, non‐Ringwraith character in a company with 3 or fewer characters. Character makes a
corruption check at the end of his movement/hazard phase for each region he moved through. All of his checks are modified by the
number of characters in his company. during his organization phase, he may tap to attempt to remove this card by rolling greater
than 6. Discard this card if his company has 4 or more characters. Cannot be duplicated on a given character.

Maethmaenor wrote:I believe the character with AaU must make the corruption check for each region he moved, regardless that both companies join at the site (what makes that AaU be discarded).

Right.

Maethmaenor wrote:AaU should be discarded exactly at the moment when before the site phase starts. Is this right?

Not before companies will join.

Although there are contradicting fragments in CRF that says when exactly a company that moved is at site, it does not affect answers.

Annotation 25: A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all
times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/
hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard
phase. During this period a company is considered to be en-route between sites and
not at any site.

Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all
movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts. Companies at the same Haven/
Darkhaven site may join at this time.

Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and
they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving
company is not at a site until the site phase. [effective 11/17/97]

The last is not compatible with the two former. If companies are not at site until the site phase they cannot join according to 2nd quote.
Besides 3rd quote is illogical:

Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and
they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase
>
a moving company is not at a site until the site phase

is not valid implication.

P.S.

It seems like we both have access to slightly different copies of CRF.
Mine:
http://www.meccg.net/netherlands/meccg/ ... f/crf.html
and
http://meccg.tolkien.com.pl/forum/downl ... e.php?id=6

Konrad Klar wrote: Although there are contradicting fragments in CRF that says when exactly a company that moved is at site, it does not affect answers.

Annotation 25: A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all
times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/
hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard
phase. During this period a company is considered to be en-route between sites and
not at any site.

Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all
movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts. Companies at the same Haven/
Darkhaven site may join at this time.

Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and
they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving
company is not at a site until the site phase. [effective 11/17/97]

The last is not compatible with the two former. If companies are not at site until the site phase they cannot join according to 2nd quote.

Oh man, finally! I had always some trouble with the last, because of its contradiction with the annotation, but I thought "surely I will understand this later, when I play a little more". Moreover, the strange implication there was hard to understand, too. Thank you for your complete answers, they are very illuminating.

Konrad Klar wrote: It seems like we both have access to slightly different copies of CRF.
Mine:
http://www.meccg.net/netherlands/meccg/ ... f/crf.html
and
http://meccg.tolkien.com.pl/forum/downl ... e.php?id=6

I have the CRF from the Dutch MECCG (Council of the Isles of the Dead that Live), exactly what you post. Sometimes I delete some lines or reorder lines when I cite, maybe that is the reason of the apparent difference.

Thank you again.

Hello:

I have two more questions regarding AaU, please:

1) If the company moves with starter movement: count this as only two regions, or should I count the region symbols in the site path? I think it is the first, but I am not really sure.

2) As the text says: "All of his checks are modified by the number of characters in his company" I allways play counting the character with AaU too. That means that I must allways modify the check by +1 at least. Is that really right? Just wondering, maybe the text should be: CP: 3 (and not 4), and later: "All of his checks are modified by the number of the other characters in his company" or something like that.

Thank you.

You are correct regarding the character himself counting as a +1. A given character always counts as a character in his company.

Regarding regions using starter movement:

MELE Rules wrote:A site path is the sequence of regions between a site and its nearest Darkhaven. However, each region in the sequence is only indicated by its type, not by its name.

Starter movement travels through regions. Its safety is that it does not travel through named regions, which means keying can not be done by region name (except for site of origin/destination site). Therefore, you count all the region symbols in the site path for a card such as Alone And Unadvised.

Maethmaenor wrote:Just wondering, maybe the text should be: CP: 3 (and not 4)

Then, with The Balance of Things, you could make cc for 6 minus number of characters, not for 8 minus number of characters.

Bandobras Took wrote:Therefore, you count all the region symbols in the site path for a card such as Alone And Unadvised.

How it interacts with effects that change number of region symbols (Hey! Come Merry Dol!, Withered Lands, Roam the Waste*)?

(My intuition tells me, that it should affect number of regions not specified by name, i.e. company moving from Rivendell to Cameth Brin always is moving through one region, even if it is moving through [Withered Lands], or by path with no region symbols [Hey! Come Merry Dol!]; a company moving from Rivendell to Ruined Signal Tower may by considered moving through 4 regions [if target of Withered Lands was not belonging to Rhudaur, nor to Enedwaith], or may be considered moving through 2 regions [Hey! Come Merry Dol!]).

Bandobras Took wrote:Therefore, you count all the region symbols in the site path for a card such as Alone And Unadvised.

Thank you. So has more "real world" meaning, too.

Unfortunately, I played yesterday AaU on Aragorn giving him 6 CP. But he made only two cc (and passed them) when he moved alone through five regions. But I won the round anyway

Konrad Klar wrote:Then, with The Balance of Things, you could make cc for 6 minus number of characters, not for 8 minus number of characters.

Ok. Good point. I know I must know or remember more cards.

I would say the general rule is that effects which change the number of region symbols would also affect anything that relies on the number of regions, e.g. Returning To Site caused by Long Winter. Hey! would alter whether a company is sent back, and Withered would make a company vulnerable that was not previously. Likewise, Hey! would alter the number of corruption checks Lure of Nature or Alone would cause, as would Withered.

So company under effect of Hey! Come Merry Dol! moving from Rivendell to Cameth Brin is moving through 0 regions and through Rhudaur?

Technically, I believe that's correct. It obviously makes no sense, but that's not the first time that's happened in this game.

How about Belegaer, Forod etc. ?
Is your interpretation consistent here?

Mine interpretation is not compliant with:

CRF, Errata (Cards), A Short Rest wrote:This card only allows the extra card draw for moving companies that actually have a
site path. It cannot be used with Under-deeps movement, or special movement cards
like Belegaer.

just because it clearly contradicts with text of card like Belegaer, that explicitly say: "The site path is ....".

According to me:

This card only allows the extra card draw for moving companies that actually move through regions. It cannot be used with Under-deeps movement, or special movement cards like Belegaer.

In short: number of regions, number of named regions, and region symbols in company's site path are not equal.

Konrad Klar wrote:How about Belegaer, Forod etc. ?
Is your interpretation consistent here?

Mine interpretation is not compliant with:

CRF, Errata (Cards), A Short Rest wrote:This card only allows the extra card draw for moving companies that actually have a
site path. It cannot be used with Under-deeps movement, or special movement cards
like Belegaer.

just because it clearly contradicts with text of card like Belegaer, that explicitly say: "The site path is ....".

I actually read those two as two separate rules:

A Short Rest:
a) Only allows the extra card draw for moving companies that actually have a site path, and
b) Cannot be used with Under-deeps movement, or special movement cards like Belegaer.

Instances of a) would include cards that provide for movement without a movement/hazard phase, such as Bill the Pony, Great Road, etc.

So to revert to the original question, I think the interpretation is still consistent. The company's site path for Belegaer is three Coastal Sea regions, therefore the company travelled through three regions. The key is to take the most basic form of movement, which is starter movement. In starter movement, there may be six regions listed in a site path, but the company still only moves through two named regions. So number of regions in a site path, as you mentioned, is not equal with the number of named regions.

But I do say that the number of region symbols and the number of regions in a company's site path are equivalent for the purposes of determining how many regions a company has moved through during the movement/hazard phase. Hazards and resources can modify this number.

Ok.
And someone using Forod, Washed and Refreshed for the same company is able to untap one character in the company at start of M/H phase (up to three with Hey! Come Merry Dol!).

(special movement with Bill the Pony, Great Road, does not allow to draw a cards for movement at all, so nothing can modify a number of cards to draw).

One curious thing. If:

a) Only allows the extra card draw for moving companies that actually have a site path, and
b) Cannot be used with Under-deeps movement, or special movement cards like Belegaer.

are really separate, why "Under-deeps movement" is mentioned at all? Using Under-deeps movement is situation where company does not have actually site path, so it is already covered by (a). Is it for hypothetical situation where a company using Under-deeps movement has anyway site path?

But it is a discrepancy not bigger than mentioning special movement with Belegaer as movement without actually having a site path (if [a] and are read as whole, not as separate rules).

Quite possibly. There is overlap there; a person using Eagle-Mounts will be using special movement and also have no site path.