Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

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Muad'Dib
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Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Muad'Dib »

I heard many times Half-orcs are worth 2MP for fallen Pallando. But i think its wrong interpretation.

[quote=White Hand rules book]MARSHALLING POINTS - Marshalling points for stage resource cards are handled normally (i.e. as printed on the card). However, all other marshalling point cards are only worth 1 marshalling point each to a Fallen-wizard (regardless of their printed value). These MPs can not be modified by a hero or minion resource event (e.g. Rumor of the One, Tribute Garnered, Sentinels of Númenor, etc.). However, Fallen-wizard abilities and stage resource cards can modify the number of marshalling points certain cards give.[/quote]

What i see is stage resources give points printed on the cards. Only other sources of points can be modified by fallen-wizards abilities and stage resources.

I think its obvious or am i wrong?
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Konrad Klar »

However, Fallen-wizard abilities and stage resource cards can modify the number of marshalling points certain cards give.
That says what Fallen-wizard abilities and stage resource cards can. That does not say what Fallen-wizard abilities and stage resource cards cannot.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Bandobras Took »

The standard definition for "normal" is "as written on the card, not considering other cards' effects."

Therefore, if marshalling points for Stage Resources are handled normally, you do it in a manner that does not consider MP modifications from other cards. Fallen Pallando is another card. Therefore, his effect is not considered with regard to the MP total of Stage Resource factions, because those, by rule, are handled normally.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Konrad Klar »

Marshalling points for stage resource cards are handled normally (i.e., as printed on
the card). However, all other marshalling point cards are only worth 1 marshalling
point each to a Fallen- wizard (regardless of their printed value).

These MPs cannot be modified by a hero or minion resource event (e.g., Rumor of the
One, Tribute Garnered, Sentinels of Numenor, etc.). However, Fallen-wizard abilities
and stage resource cards can modify the number of marshalling points certain cards
give.
The same quote as in first post, but with original formatting.

What are"These MPs"?
"Marshalling points for stage resource"?
MPs from "all other marshalling point card"?
Both?

If that which "are handled normally (i.e., as printed on the card)" cannot be modified,
why that which "are only worth 1 marshalling point each to a Fallen- wizard (regardless of their printed value)" could be modified?

First are worth as "printed on the card", second "are only worth 1 marshalling point each to a Fallen- wizard (regardless of their printed value)", according to 1st pargraph. What makes the first ones more immune to changes, than other ones?

P.S.
Non-rhetorical question: how are handeld MPs from minion resources controlled by minion player? Or MPs from hero resources controlled by hero player?
Normally? Non-normally? In other way?
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Bandobras Took »

The wording "normally." Stage Resource MPs are handled normally. Non-stage resource MPs are not handled normally.

"These MPs" refer to all the other sources of MPs which are worth 1 MP to a FW regardless of printed value. These cannot be modified by hero/minion resource events, because the rule says so. They can be modified by FW abilities and stage resource cards because the rules say so. They can be modified by hazards, if such modifications exist, because the rules do not forbid such from happening.

Non of these modifications are possible with Stage Resource MPs, because those must be handled normally, i.e. as printed on the card, not considering other cards' effects.

The word "normally" makes the first set immune. The rules make it clear that the second set is not treated normally, and then provide further clarification on how that set is treated.

Resource MPs from hero/hero and minion/minion are handled as described in the rules. Normal/not normal do not enter into that consideration; it only enters into consideration with the FW rules because the word is there in how to handle Stage Resource MPs.

If the contention is that ICE meant "normally" in this sense to mean "just like hero players handle hero MPs and minion players handle minion MPs," then their choice of wording is unfortunate, because "normal" does have special meaning within the context of the game. It is possible to make that argument, since
CRF, Rulings By Term, Normal wrote:Normal means as written on the card, not considering other card's effects. Note that this definition only applies to effects referring to card texts.
states that it only applies to effects referring to card texts, and we are dealing here with a rule referring to MP values. Unfortunately, that CRF entry already paints itself in the shaky wording corner by referring to effects that refer to card texts. (Off-Topic Tangent: As opposed to actions?)
Free To Choose wrote:Playable on an item that normally gives 3 corruption points or more.
This is not an effect that refers to a card text. It is a playability condition, but the accepted practice is to apply the definition from the CRF to this card even though it does not actually, as the definition is written, apply.

The MELE rules make this even worse by using "normal" and "normally" in both the game-specific and more generic senses, and then goes further in the glossary to say:
Normal: As printed on the card without modification from other effects. Certain effects allow you to hold one more card than normal in your hand; these effects are cumulative and you should not necessarily consider normal in this sense to mean 8 cards.
In this case, "Normal" does not even mean what is written on the card, since on no card is it written that hand size is 8. (Though the hand size clarification is consistent; each card that allows you to hold one more card than normal does so without considering whether any other card already allows it.)

Since this is a case where what is meant by the rules is unclear, it may be a good one for the NetRep to clarify. Until then, though, it's safer to assume the stricter interpretation. So far as I know, the only case where it does make a difference is with Pallando and the Half-Orcs faction.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Konrad Klar »

Before any modifications, how are handled:
a) MPs from minion resources controlled by minion player,
b) MP from hero item controlled by minion player
?

If answers are:
for (a) - "normally",
for (b) - "The item is only worth half (round up) of its normal marshalling points",
does it prevent (a) or (b) from being further modified?

If answers are different, then sorry for bothering.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Bandobras Took »

The answer, by rule, is:

"The item is only worth half (round up) of its normal marshalling points."

The MPs can of course be further modified.

The answer cannot be "normally" in the game sense, because the word is not used in the rule, nor can it be "normally" in the more generic sense, because this is stated as an exception.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

Muzgash
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Muzgash »

These MPs cannot be modified by a hero or minion resource event (e.g., Rumor of the
One, Tribute Garnered, Sentinels of Numenor, etc.). However, Fallen-wizard abilities
and stage resource cards can modify the number of marshalling points certain cards
give.
It's clear that in the first sentence "These" refers to hero/minion cards. It's much less clear whether the second sentence refers to just hero/minion MPs of a FW player or all MPs of FW player. If the latter, then if you combine stage MPs are handled as printed on the card with "Fallen-wizard abilities
and stage resource cards can modify the number of marshalling points certain cards
give" you would certainly count Half-Orcs as 2 MPs for Pallando.

I think the whole stage MPs are handled "normally" paragraph was just intended to contrast stage MPs with the "not normal" way FWs handle hero/minion MPs. That's obviously just speculation, though. What we need is a NetRep to clarify whether
However, Fallen-wizard abilities
and stage resource cards can modify the number of marshalling points certain cards
give.
applies to only hero/minion MPsor also to stage MPs.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Konrad Klar »

Bandobras Took wrote:[...]So far as I know, the only case where it does make a difference is with Pallando and the Half-Orcs faction.
There are also "Await The Onset" and "Keys of Orthanc" and "Keys to The White Towers".
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Bandobras Took »

Good point.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

panotxa
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by panotxa »

Sorry to respawn this thread, but lately I’m playing a FW Pallando deck and it makes a difference having a couple of extra MPs or not...

Is there any “official” decision/ruling on this topic? After reading this thread and an old one in meccg.net, IMHO I see it as a case of “card overruling the rules”. I was thinking on attending Lure with a FW Pallando deck and I’d rather to not have to argue on every match about this :/

Thanks a lot!

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Konrad Klar »

Who will dare to give an official answer? :)
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panotxa
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by panotxa »

I’d really apreciate it... is there a NetRep anymore? :/

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Theo
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by Theo »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:42 am
Who will dare to give an official answer? :)
Not me! But my reading also concludes that "Half-orcs" (factions) are worth 2 MP for Fallen Pallando.
Fallen-wizard abilities and stage resource cards can modify the number of marshalling points certain cards give.
There is no restriction of "certain cards" not permitting stage-resource cards, so this rule overcomes "normally".
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CDavis7M
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Re: Half-orcs + fallen Pallando

Post by CDavis7M »

You can get an official answer from the tournament director.

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