Thrall of the Voice / Orcs

Khamul the Easterling · Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:30 pm

FW: Is Thrall of the Voice sufficient to play an Orc character? and why?

Konrad Klar · Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:46 pm

Thrall of the Voice wrote: Instead of a normal character, during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind. Place this card with the character. -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1. Such a character may also be in your starting company. ...for those who it conquered the spell endured when they were far away...-LotRIII

"Instead of a normal" is key. Definition of character that is normally allowed to play is replaced by that from text of card.

Trolls and orcs (with mind up to 6) fits in this definition.

GuardianOfTheFlame · Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:14 am

Eheheh! It's better that you're friendly with a Fallen Wiz, 'cause he can raise his voice louder than Sauron itself!!!

It's curious that only with a fallen wiz you can have for example a company of elves with Shagrat using Thrall... neither Nazguls or even Sauron have the authority to make orcs and elves together

Salo
P.S.: Maybe you're interested in various posts that I opened about fallen (and this in particular) on www.meccg.it/forum (http://www.meccg.it/forum/topic.asp?TOP ... ,the,voice)

Konrad Klar · Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:24 pm

Thrall of the Voice does not allow violating company composition rules. It merely allows playing orcs and trolls.

Bandobras Took · Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:47 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:Thrall of the Voice does not allow violating company composition rules. It merely allows playing orcs and trolls.

At least we agree on this one.

And agents, as well.

GuardianOfTheFlame · Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:04 pm

mmhh... Are you sure? we discussed about this in a thread on the Italian forum about "Instead of a normal" text...
The discussion started after seeing this deck http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.php?t=243
that use a Troll with dwarves, but I think you're right 'cause in this case trolls & dwarves are together in the wizardhaven (this deck squats

so probably they don't move together)
If so I'll reply to that post and... let Fallen Wizards shout!

Sauron · Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:12 pm

Note this card does not let you start with Fram, Bert, Tom, or William. Because these guys state can't be in a starting company.

Jambo · Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:38 pm

I know I've been here before, but I don't agree.

Thrall allows a character with a mind up to 6 to be played, but it doesn't specifically circumvent the rule preventing Orcs and Trolls being played. Bad Company is the only card that allows Orcs and Trolls.

Konrad Klar · Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:37 pm

Thrall of the Voice does not circumvent specifically any restriction concerning "which character may be played". It repleaces that restrictions entirely by its own restrictions. Actually the Thrall of the Voice even does not need "(including a minion agent)" phrase to be used in conjunction with agents. Even if Fallen Wizard player would be specifically restricted from playing agents (as he is restricted from playing Orcs and Trolls).
However beside restrictions concerning "which character may be played", there are restrictions concerning "where character may be played". Normally they are: at its home site or at haven, additionally if Wizard is in play, characters played under GI may be played only at site where Wizard is present, agents may be played only at their home sites.
Phrase "(including a minion agent)" addresses that last restriction. Without this phrase agent could be played with Thrall of The Voice only at Wizardhaven that is the agent's home site ("additionally if Wizard is in play, characters played under GI may be played only at site where Wizard is present" is still in force). This phrase also overrides other restriction of agents: they normally may not be in starting company.

Jambo · Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:37 pm

There was a good thread on this subject over at meccg.net. It's rather old now, but we discussed this topic at length there.

http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0

I'd like to see this go to the NetRep for another look, but there are so many other unresolved areas (Ringwraith Followers to name but one) that it's probably not worth it.

Jambo · Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:43 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thrall of the Voice wrote: Instead of a normal character, during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind. Place this card with the character. -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1. Such a character may also be in your starting company. ...for those who it conquered the spell endured when they were far away...-LotRIII
"Instead of a normal" is key. Definition of character that is normally allowed to play is replaced by that from text of card.

Trolls and orcs (with mind up to 6) fits in this definition.

Instead of normal is key, but the only restrictions being replaced are mind limit to 6 and minion agents.

Bandobras Took · Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:19 pm

Jambo makes a good point in that they included agents in the list of characters affected by this card, but did not include orcs and trolls. If the wording of the card were sufficient, there was no need to mention agents, as Konrad pointed out, but they did, which is an indication that in their own minds, they felt the wording was not enough.

Also, I'm not seeing the reasoning allowing agents to be played anywhere but at their home sites with Thrall -- can I use Thrall to play Imrahil at a non-Haven Bree during the organization phase? If not, then I can't use Thrall to play Agents anywhere but at their home sites.

Of course, then, by extension, I can't use it to bring in Orcs or Trolls unless I'm somehow allowed to bring in Orcs and Trolls.

Jambo · Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:32 pm

Precisely. If you want orcs and trolls you need Bad Company. Simples.

Konrad Klar · Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:13 pm

Jambo wrote:Instead of normal is key, but the only restrictions being replaced are mind limit to 6 and minion agents.

I would put my point simplier:
Normal character: non-Orc, non-Troll character with mind upto 5.
Character played "instead": one character (including a minion agent) mind with up to a 6.

As seen "non-Orc, non-Troll" part is gone in "instead" definition.

Bandobras Took wrote:Also, I'm not seeing the reasoning allowing agents to be played anywhere but at their home sites with Thrall -- can I use Thrall to play Imrahil at a non-Haven Bree during the organization phase? If not, then I can't use Thrall to play Agents anywhere but at their home sites.

Right. My error. I did not seen that card a long time and I was under impression that it allows to play character only at Wizardhaven (mistaken by me with Open To The Summons text).
So now I do not see other reason for "(including a minion agent)" other than overriding rule that does not allow agents to be in starting company. Beside this point all restrctions concerning "where character may be played" are still in force.

Bandobras Took · Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:48 pm

So any kind of character may be played using thrall, but you must still be able to legally play the character. In other words, the home site rule remains in force -- but why? The normal character is also subject to home site rules. These should be dispensed with by the same logic that makes non-orcs/trolls normal characters.