Council of Elrond

Can golodhros tap to influence a minion character who is intend on moving away from minas morgul, if that character isnt active and hasnt been moved yet?

Yes.
During M/H phase rules only forbid playing a hazards on character not in company proceding its M/H phase. They do not say that character that is target of other activity of hazard player must be in such company.
Effects of tapping a Nazguls are not exception. When tapped a Nazgul becomes short-event, thus tapping it counts as playing hazard*.

*) Above does not touch such aspects like word "any" in texts of some Nazgul cards.

Konrad Klar wrote:Yes.
During M/H phase rules only forbid playing a hazards on character not in company proceding its M/H phase. They do not say that character that is target of other activity of hazard player must be in such company.
Effects of tapping a Nazguls are not exception. When tapped a Nazgul becomes short-event, thus tapping it counts as playing hazard*.

*) Above does not touch such aspects like word "any" in texts of some Nazgul cards.

CRF: Hazards may only be played on a company whose movement/hazard phase is being resolved, or on the site they are moving to. Long-events and permanent-events may effect more than one company even though they are only played "on" one company.

If you're going to use that as your basis, then you can't play anything on the site of a non-moving company. As the rule clearly states, the company, who's movement/hazard phase is being resolved ,or the site they are MOVING to. As you can see this would be silly.

Sauron wrote:If you're going to use that as your basis, then you can't play anything on the site of a non-moving company. As the rule clearly states, the company, who's movement/hazard phase is being resolved ,or the site they are MOVING to. As you can see this would be silly.

Yes.
Whether rules are less or more restrictive if it comes to target site, it does not affect the Golodhros question.
Using Golodhros ability is not playing hazard.
So it does not change my answer.

Konrad Klar wrote:

Sauron wrote:If you're going to use that as your basis, then you can't play anything on the site of a non-moving company. As the rule clearly states, the company, who's movement/hazard phase is being resolved ,or the site they are MOVING to. As you can see this would be silly.

Yes.
Whether rules are less or more restrictive if it comes to target site, it does not affect the Golodhros question.
Using Golodhros ability is not playing hazard.
So it does not change my answer.

No, I was pointing out the fact, the rules can be silly. I'm not saying your interpretation of the rule is wrong, I'm saying if you're going to say that because it's not "playing" a card, then you also have to take the fact you can no longer play cards on a site for a company not moving, because we need to keep the rules consistent.

You can't use the strict wording of the rule for use for 1 thing, and a loose interpretation of the rule for another.

So going forward, Yes Golo works the way Konrad says, but we must also now take the fact you can't play cards on a site when the company hasn't moved. You may of course still target the company as the rule states, but may no longer target the site.

Right.
The rule seems to be silly but independently from Golodhros.

- If this rule would be looser (i.e. allow to play hazards not only on new site, but also on current site), or
- If this rule would not exist at all

it would not change the Golodhros question (and answer to it).
The rule simply affects only playing hazards.

So it is not a case "take kit and caboodle" (if you want use Golodhros in some way, then you cannot play hazards on current site).

Konrad Klar wrote:During M/H phase rules only forbid playing a hazards on character not in company proceding its M/H phase. They do not say that character that is target of other activity of hazard player must be in such company.
Effects of tapping a Nazguls are not exception. When tapped a Nazgul becomes short-event, thus tapping it counts as playing hazard*.

Then how do you defend your quote here? You state the only M/H phase rules forbid playing, not using of hazards. The rule I stated was the M/H rule for playing, that you're quoting above.

If that becomes the basis of why you can use Golo because he's not being played, then you must also abide by what the rule says. You can't say well because I didn't play him I can use him, but also I can play hazards on non-moving company sites. I don't see a conflict here, and as silly as it is, under the current rules stated above, you can both use Golo in the way you describe Konrad, but you also can't play cards on a site of non-moving company.

Daelomin at Home says:
In addition, you may discard this card from play during opponent's movement/hazard phase (not counting against the hazard limit) to increase the hazard limit against one company by 2.

So under your reasoning, if I already had daelomin in play and my opponent had 2 companies, where both companies were moving, I could discard daelomin during the 1st company's m/h phase, for a +2 HL against the 2nd company?

1 - it's already in play, so I'm not playing it
2 - it doesn't become an event or anything upon discard
3 - the card itself doesn't say current company or anything

So under your reasoning I could use Daelomin at Home this way?

What about Power Built by Waiting:
Tap during a company's movement/hazard phase to increase the hazard limit against the company by one. Card does not untap during your untap phase. You may use 2 against a company's hazard limit to untap this card.

Assume 2 companies, and assume a tapped state.

During company 1's m/h phase I use 2 against company 2's hazard limit to untap this card.

1 - The card doesn't say this company's hazard limit, it just says A company's hazard limit.
2 - Again this would be legal under your example no?

Sauron wrote:Daelomin at Home says:
In addition, you may discard this card from play during opponent's movement/hazard phase (not counting against the hazard limit) to increase the hazard limit against one company by 2.

So under your reasoning, if I already had daelomin in play and my opponent had 2 companies, where both companies were moving, I could discard daelomin during the 1st company's m/h phase, for a +2 HL against the 2nd company?

1 - it's already in play, so I'm not playing it
2 - it doesn't become an event or anything upon discard
3 - the card itself doesn't say current company or anything

So under your reasoning I could use Daelomin at Home this way?

No.
This action has a target - a hazard limit.
Hazard limit exists only during company's M/H phase. Other companies do not have a hazard limit during this time.
In another M/H phase of the company it wil have another hazard limit.

What about Power Built by Waiting:
Tap during a company's movement/hazard phase to increase the hazard limit against the company by one. Card does not untap during your untap phase. You may use 2 against a company's hazard limit to untap this card.

Assume 2 companies, and assume a tapped state.

During company 1's m/h phase I use 2 against company 2's hazard limit to untap this card.

1 - The card doesn't say this company's hazard limit, it just says A company's hazard limit.
2 - Again this would be legal under your example no?

As above.

Konrad Klar wrote:

Sauron wrote:Daelomin at Home says:
In addition, you may discard this card from play during opponent's movement/hazard phase (not counting against the hazard limit) to increase the hazard limit against one company by 2.

So under your reasoning, if I already had daelomin in play and my opponent had 2 companies, where both companies were moving, I could discard daelomin during the 1st company's m/h phase, for a +2 HL against the 2nd company?

1 - it's already in play, so I'm not playing it
2 - it doesn't become an event or anything upon discard
3 - the card itself doesn't say current company or anything

So under your reasoning I could use Daelomin at Home this way?

No.
This action has a target - a hazard limit.
Hazard limit exists only during company's M/H phase. Other companies do not have a hazard limit during this time.
In another M/H phase of the company it wil have another hazard limit.

Golo has a target to - the character he's trying to influence.

Cards can increase HL for other companies, such as Gandalf the White Rider.

Where does it state the HL only exists during the M/H phase? So I can't 1/2 the HL to sideboard a card, since the HL doesn't exist outside the M/H phase? Of course not. I think your rational here is faulty.

Sauron wrote: Golo has a target to - the character he's trying to influence.

Cards can increase HL for other companies, such as Gandalf the White Rider.

Where does it state the HL only exists during the M/H phase? So I can't 1/2 the HL to sideboard a card, since the HL doesn't exist outside the M/H phase? Of course not. I think your rational here is faulty.

Issue is not that an action has target, but that target (HL of other company) of action from Daelomin at Home, or Power Built by Waiting does not exist.

Action from Gandalf the White Rider is triggered if during M/H phase a company is overt.

You can bring hazards at the end of opponent's untap phase and then HLs for the rest turn will be halved. It affects all HLs so does not target any specified HL.
Also Steeds an Horses do not target any HL. Their effects will be reapplied for each M/H of the company.

If HL would exist beside M/H phase, then you would be allowed to play Many Turns and Doublings (for second effect) in organization phase. Are you allowed to play it in such way, in your opinion?

Konrad Klar wrote:

Sauron wrote: Golo has a target to - the character he's trying to influence.

Cards can increase HL for other companies, such as Gandalf the White Rider.

Where does it state the HL only exists during the M/H phase? So I can't 1/2 the HL to sideboard a card, since the HL doesn't exist outside the M/H phase? Of course not. I think your rational here is faulty.

Issue is not that an action has target, but that target (HL of other company) of action from Daelomin at Home, or Power Built by Waiting does not exist.

Action from Gandalf the White Rider is triggered if during M/H phase a company is overt.

You can bring hazards at the end of opponent's untap phase and then HLs for the rest turn will be halved. It affects all HLs so does not target any specified HL.
Also Steeds an Horses do not target any HL. Their effects will be reapplied for each M/H of the company.

If HL would exist beside M/H phase, then you would be allowed to play Many Turns and Doublings (for second effect) in organization phase. Are you allowed to play it in such way, in your opinion?

Well I guess we should 1st decide if it is actually a target. Target has a specific meaning in this game.

A target is an entity that an action is played out through. Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."

...which means back to the roots, i.e. discussion about fundamental concepts of game. Well, if it is needed...

I think that HL of given company fulfill condition of being target. It is that, but not other HL. Targets does not need be a concrete objects represented by cards; they may be such things like corruption checks, for example.

And even if someone would maintain that HL may not be a target, than what?
Is not HL absolutely required to play cards like Deeper Shadow, Many Turns and Doublings (both in second use), or use effects of Daelomin at Home, or Power Built by Waiting? Is at any point not sure, which HL will be increased/decreased?

If HL is required, and if it is sure (at declaration and at resolution) which HL:
how different it is from situation when HL is a target?

I want to clarify a one thing.
HL is a target of Power Built by Waiting when HL is increased by tapping the card.
When action is "untap the card" it only cost 2 against a HL (target of that action is then the card itself).