Council of Elrond

Hi,

if I split a company at a tapped haven side and one of the companies move (no new charcters played there this turn), I can use than this untapped haven side for for the company that stays and use the tappe version for the moving company?

Thx for an answer!

Cheers

Heiner

Yes.

CRF, Turn Sequence, Organization Phase, Organizing Companies wrote:If a company splits, all but one of the split companies must attempt to move to a
different site this turn. The company may not rejoin in the same phase.

It does not say anything which of a resulting companies may be the not moving company and which not.

P.S.
And there is no trivial method of abuse: splitting a company at tapped haven and rejoining at untapped haven.

can you also indicate where it says you may get a new haven copy for a company when it splits?
I understand you bring new characters into play with a new copy, but just for splitting, that seems bit nonsensical.
You might as well untap the haven site in untap phase...(ok perhaps you got only 1 dude at the site)

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:can you also indicate where it says you may get a new haven copy for a company when it splits?

Lidless Eye, Starter Rules, Characters & Companies wrote:Clarification: During the organization phase, one Darkhaven card may be used to represent the location of two or more companies, so long as the distinction between companies is clearly presented spatially. However, we suggest the use of multiple Darkhaven cards for clarity.

Cursive original.

So not having a separate haven site card for each company in organization phase is only option, that even is not recomended.

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:I understand you bring new characters into play with a new copy, but just for splitting, that seems bit nonsensical.

Why?
Because split then move (from tapped copy) is abuse?
And bring then join (at untapped copy) is not?

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:You might as well untap the haven site in untap phase...(ok perhaps you got only 1 dude at the site)

Ehm... Sarcasm?

Ehm... Sarcasm?

I only wish
yes of course it's both abuse, but intuitively one might understand playing a new copy with a new character at least

All over the board people reorganize their companies, split join whatever, ad infinitum. During org phase your company is in limbo, hence the term organization phase. Just when it's at a Haven, one should use different copies for clarity? What are we, infants? Smells like very bad cheeze, long past the expiration date, and ICE never saw this abuse, cause during mele there was not really anything worth untapping a Darkhaven for. Even for something like a Fellowship/Swarm of Bats I don't see why it would be needed.

Perhaps not because we are infans, but because formally each company deserve a separate haven site card (if available).
By deserve I mean (for example) that player at the end of M/H phase can opt to not join two companies at the same haven and play two resources that require untapped site (again, if two haven site cards are available). And this formally (and obviously) requires two haven site cards*.

People tend to simplify some operations. And this is not problem as long they exactly know what they are doing.
For example they are waiting for body check and then, depending on result, are rotating, discarding, placing in MP/Out-of-play pile a character/ally card.
And the same people sometimes are forgetting that formally character/ally becomes wounded before body check, not after (so e.g. cc from Despair of Heart must be made before bc).
Not knowing exact timing does not require infancy.

*) Unless site will be being untapped between playing the resources.

Thx for the answer,

set aside HH can put to deck before the game starts like a bounced character or is it put out of play (CRF 55 says something like that, see answer from Bernd under FWSL Tournament).

Cheers

Heiner

Sorry Konrad,

my reply above is for the your answer to the Hidden Haven question !

Cheers

Heiner

Konrad Klar wrote:Yes.

CRF, Turn Sequence, Organization Phase, Organizing Companies wrote:If a company splits, all but one of the split companies must attempt to move to a
different site this turn. The company may not rejoin in the same phase.

It does not say anything which of a resulting companies may be the not moving company and which not.

P.S.
And there is no trivial method of abuse: splitting a company at tapped haven and rejoining at untapped haven.

Hello Konrad,

just for clarification. So if companies can join and split at haven as often as they want in orga phase, 2 characters sitting there can always get a new untapped haven side by splitting and than joining again so none of the companies even even has to move?

Thx for answer.

Heiner

CRF, Turn Sequence, Organization Phase, Organizing Companies wrote:If a company splits, all but one of the split companies must attempt to move to a
different site this turn. The company may not rejoin in the same phase.

Underlines and bold mine.

What timing has to do with this issue is beyond me

Well it depends on the definition of splitting. If splitting is a "decisive" reformation of the company during organization phase, e.g. one needs to choose a new destination site for the company in order to be splitting. Anything before that is not considered splitting? [nb. playing a character at the same Haven copy does not wreck my Fellowship either then, which reduces the necesity to have a rule for multiple haven copies in play].

But if that is the case, I find the formal requirement as you say to deserve a haven company for each company rather moot. Why does one deserve a copy if moving away? Because the whole not-joining at same Haven (and having a separate m/h phase) is not an issue (i.e. irrelevant), as one cannot "move" to another copy of the same haven I assume when sitting at that Haven (did they actually literally state that somewhere? there's bound to be someone who wants to abuse that).

aisb, this was just something they invented for sake of "clarity" (in ICE's view, not mine, as it's not unclear to anyone with half a brain which company splits, once you play a new site card; we do it for all the other sites across). And you now upgrade it to a formal deserving, but nothing in meccg is deserved, necesity is the mother of invention, not ICE law

nb. that CRF entry seems to be an attempt to make amends of possible mess the "clarification" has left, am I correct in this? (one never knows for sure what is a ruling and what is from the rules, unless delving deep into this, which is bad for mental health).

I think that only purpose of:

CRF, Turn Sequence, Organization Phase, Organizing Companies wrote:If a company splits, all but one of the split companies must attempt to move to a
different site this turn. The company may not rejoin in the same phase.

is just reducing a possibilities of abuse.

Player cannot split then join a company at haven in the same organization phase (in order of removing tapped haven, or no longer needed Palm to Palm* for no cost).
Player cannot split a company at haven and wait to the end of M/H phase and then rejoin at untapped copy of the haven.

He can however expedite a moving company from tapped copy and leave sitting at untapped copy. Someone may name it "abuse".
But this is not for no cost. And if player want to rejoin companies he must to manage at least two M/H phases for a moving company, or use Great/Iron Road, or to pray for returning to the site of origin (and waste a site phase).

@Smaug
Now I realise that answer for your question should be rather:

CRF, Turn Sequence, Organization Phase, Organizing Companies wrote:If a company splits, all but one of the split companies must attempt to move to a
different site this turn. The company may not rejoin in the same phase.

Underline mine.
So no splitting and sitting then joining (at the end of M/H phase).

*) anybody find this card usable ?

I think that only purpose of [CRF]...is just reducing a possibilities of abuse.

My point exactly, but the reason for it is an unnecessary "clarification." If from a "clarification" the situation only escalates, it is better to abolish the clarification in the first place.

The real cost is a conceptual dichotomy between normal sites and haven sites, which has impact on the definition of splitting/forming companies and organization phase. For example, if at any normal site I can reform my company even after selecting a new site for that company (which is common practise at least), at a Haven you could not do this, according to the CRF.
If it would not be allowed for any site, as selecting new site means end of org.phase (so one could not reconsider a selected new site either before end of org.phase), then the "for clarity" reason of playing a new Haven copy is even more useless than one might assume.

No.
I think that you are mixing CRF rule with MELE clarification. There is no dichotomy you are supposing.

CRF rule requires that all but one companies splitted in org. phase was moving. And this rule is for any site, not only for havens.
MELE clarification says that multiple companies at the same haven site can use one haven site card (but it is not recomended). Clarification is only for havens.

Reasons for this clarification is just fact that multiple haven site cards (of the same haven) can have different state tapped/untaped. So sometimes it is worth (or even vital) to know which company is at which copy of the same haven.
For example company A stays at a haven, company B moves from the haven.
Company A has been eliminated and B has been returned to the site of origin.
Which company was starting at tapped copy and which at untapped copy?
Should be it decided post factum?

For example, if at any normal site I can reform my company even after selecting a new site for that company (which is common practise at least), at a Haven you could not do this, according to the CRF.

You cannot do it at any site.

If it would not be allowed for any site, as selecting new site means end of org.phase (so one could not reconsider a selected new site either before end of org.phase)[...]

just for this reason.

Lidless Eye, Starter Rules, Characters & Companies wrote:Clarification: During the organization phase, one Darkhaven card may be used to represent the location of two or more companies, so long as the distinction between companies is clearly presented spatially.

CoE 67 wrote:You may use one site card to represent multiple companies during the Organization Phase, but not during any other phase.

If I'm reading this correctly, a single Haven card may be used to represent the location of two or more companies during the organization phase, but a single Haven card must be used outside of organization phase? Thus, for example, I can play just a single site-tapping card* even when two or more of my companies are present at a Haven during the site phase?
* without playing any site-untapping cards