Council of Elrond

It's been fairly well established that cards do not override the rules unless they explicitly state so:

Orders From Lugburz allowing a troll in company discussion

Discussion of the phrase "Playable On An Attack" overriding auto-attack resource rules

Discussion of Rebuild the Town being played in the site phase

That being the case, I'm wondering how A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill allow characters to be played during any phase other than the organization or violate the one character per turn limit.

I know that it's been ruled that they do, but I've never seen anybody explain exactly how.

A Chance Meeting wrote:A character (even a Hobbit) may be brought into play with direct influence at any Free-hold, Border-hold, or Ruins & Lairs.

These are the rules for bringing characters in to play:

METW Rulebook wrote:
BRINGING CHARACTERS INTO PLAY

1) During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:

2) You may play a character card.
3) You must have enough general influence or direct influence available to control the character.
4) You must place him at his home site or at any Haven site.

(or)

2) You may play a Wizard card if you do not have one in play.
3) You must place a Wizard at his home site or at Rivendell.
4) You need not control a Wizard with influence – he represents you, the player.

When you play a character, you may place him into a company already at his arrival site or he may become a new company (consisting of one character). In the second case, you must place the arrival site card next to the character played.

The wizard rules need not concern us.

But the text of A Chance Meeting only overrides rule 4 for playing characters. It says nothing about 1, 2, or 3.

When asked about the Witch King's special ability to bring in followers, the previous NetRep made the following statement (the full discussion of the Rulings Digest can be found here:

- Base rule is you can play one character per turn.

- Rules for playing RW followers are exceptions to the base rules.

- There is no exception for the one character per turn rule.

- One rule for playing a RW follower is specific card text for it.

- The specific card texts on the RWs just refers to the play of a RW, not any exceptions to the one character per turn limit.

- Therefore, there is a one RW follower per turn limit.

By this same logic, A Chance Meeting cannot possibly be used in any phase other than the organization phase -- the only character play rule it overrides is the home site rule.

And it cannot override either rule simply by virtue of being played -- otherwise Orders From Lugburz would allow a Troll Leader in a company with a Dunedain or RW leader.

In other words, is it only some cards that must explicitly state that they contradict the rules in order to achieve their effects?

We Have Come to Kill is worded the same way, save for the One Character Limit:

A character may be brought into play under general or direct influence at any Shadow-hold, Ruins & Lairs, or Border-hold. This does not count against the one character per turn limit.

Neither of them contradicts the first requirement for bringing characters into play -- that it must be during your organization phase.

How are they doing it?

Well said. You have my full agreement on this for what it's worth.

Cards must untap during untap phase. Wounded characters and allies at havens must heal at the same time.
This does not mean that other untapping/healing cards/effects may be used only in untap phase. Per the same logic: if player is allowed to bring/discard one character during organisation phase, this does not mean he must play cards allowing playing character only in organization phase.

There are rules that forces untapping/healing in untap phase and rules allowing bringing character in organization phase. There are no rules forbiddnig untapping/healig and bringing characters outside these phases.

Base rule is you can play one character per turn.

I am not sure that to comes to the "one character per turn in organization phase" or "one character per turn at all". If second player cannot play Eowin with Helm of Her Secrecy and cannot play influenced character in site phase if he played character in organization phase.

Konrad Klar wrote:Cards must untap during untap phase. Wounded characters and allies at havens must heal at the same time.
This does not mean that other untapping/healing cards/effects may be used only in untap phase. Per the same logic: if player is allowed to bring/discard one character during organisation phase, this does not mean he must play cards allowing playing character only in organization phase.

METW Rulebook wrote:HEALING

Each of your characters at a Haven may heal during the untap phase of your turn. Such a character moves from a wounded position to a tapped position (i.e., the character is still tapped). In addition, certain cards can heal characters when they are played (e.g., Healing Herbs, Halfling Strength, etc.).

Therefore, the rules allow for card effects that heal characters outside of the Untap/Heal phase.

More generally, though, by this logic, I should be able to play items during the Untap Phase.

Site Phase – One at a time, each of your companies may take the following actions at its current, untapped site. The company decides to enter and explore the site. First, if the site has an automatic-attack, it attacks the company. Then, the company may attempt to play one item, ally, faction, or information resource card that is “playable” at that site. A character in the company must tap to make this attempt. If the card is successfully played, tap the site.

So I'm not sure the analogy holds.

For certain kinds of cards, there are specific rules for bringing them into play. The rules under bringing characters into play specify the organization phase in the same way that they specify the site phase for items, allies, and factions. Therefore a card must clearly contradict this rule before we can take it as a given.

Base rule is you can play one character per turn.

Konrad Klar wrote:I am not sure that to comes to the "one character per turn in organization phase" or "one character per turn at all". If second player cannot play Eowin with Helm of Her Secrecy and cannot play influenced character in site phase if he played character in organization phase.

Helm of Her Secrecy wrote:If Eowyn is in your hand, this card is playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned) -- the company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site. If enough influence is available to control her, Eowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company. She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence. If the attack is a Nazgul, place Helm of Her Secrecy with Eowyn following the attack. Otherwise, discard this card following the attack. Regardless, Eowyn remains in play.

This card does contradict the rules by specifying a different time for the play of a character -- when a company facing an attack contains a character with the home site of Edoras and Eowyn is in your hand. Likewise Blind to the West contradicts the rules by saying it may be played at any time -- otherwise, it would be limited to the Movement/Hazard phase.

But Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill fail to set those conditions or in anyway imply a contradiction of the rules for bringing characters into play with the exception of the home site rule.

In the absence of such, all we can say is that they allow a player to ignore the Home Site restriction for the purpose of bringing a character into play -- nothing else is even implied on the card.

METW Rulebook wrote:If such an influence check is successful, the target character and his non-follower cards are discarded and the revealed character card may be immediately played (appearing at the same site). In order to play this character, you must have enough unused general influence to control him or an influencing character at the same site must have enough direct influence.

The rules allow for a character to be played after successfully influencing an opponent's character.

But that is not what these short-events do. They allow one very specific rule of character play to be ignored -- the home site/haven requirement.

Bandobras Took wrote:More generally, though, by this logic, I should be able to play items during the Untap Phase.

Yes, you are able, by the same logic. If you store Gems of Arda, Mithril, during organization phase, end of turn phase (with Safe from The Shadow, Tokens To Show) or even in M/H phase if Fealty Under Trial was played on bearer. Or use ability of hero Necklace of Girion (not limited to any phase).
However only in site phase you can play items whithout any special cards/effects.

Resource short-events can be played in any phase of your turn (may be limited by its text). Note that most short-events allowing of playing items is limited to site phase only by its own text.

Bandobras Took wrote:

Helm of Her Secrecy wrote: If Eowyn is in your hand, this card is playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned) -- the company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site. If enough influence is available to control her, Eowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company. She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence. If the attack is a Nazgul, place Helm of Her Secrecy with Eowyn following the attack. Otherwise, discard this card following the attack. Regardless, Eowyn remains in play.

This card does contradict the rules by specifying a different time for the play of a character -- when a company facing an attack contains a character with the home site of Edoras and Eowyn is in your hand. Likewise Blind to the West contradicts the rules by saying it may be played at any time -- otherwise, it would be limited to the Movement/Hazard phase.

Text of Helm of Her Secrecy specify some conditions, but no time. Attack may take place during organization phase (as result The Hunt, The Great Hunt or Traitor), so if playing of short-event that allows playing characters would be limited to organization phase, Helm of Her Secrecy would be limited to playing in such cases.

Also A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill says nothing about time of playing. Only sets different conditions (specific site type, only under DI and supersedes text of Hobbits).

Bandobras Took wrote:But that is not what these short-events do. They allow one very specific rule of character play to be ignored -- the home site/haven requirement.

This is just a moot point.
Some analogy...
There are cards/effects that makes items/information playable at site, and cards/effects that allows immediately play item (regardless it is playable at site or not).
First group (e.g. Dwarven Hoard, Secret Book) contains phrase "this turn" or "until end of turn".
Second group (e.g. Bounty of The Hoard) does not contains such phrase. And major/minor item may not be played after resolution of Bounty of The Hoard.

Returning to the cards that allows playing characters. Which part of its text indicates that this cards makes effects that lasts by some time in play after the cards is resolved? Effects that would more comparable to "character is playable" than to "character may be immediately played".

Konrad Klar wrote:
However only in site phase you can play items whithout any special cards/effects.

Also A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill says nothing about time of playing. Only sets different conditions (specific site type, only under DI and supersedes text of Hobbits).

MELE Rulebook wrote: A special item states at what sites and under which conditions it is “playable.”

So a special item is playable during any phase because it does not put forth on its conditions "playable during the site phase?" This is the exact same situation.

Konrad Klar wrote:

Bandobras Took wrote:But that is not what these short-events do. They allow one very specific rule of character play to be ignored -- the home site/haven requirement.

This is just a moot point.

That is not the argument you used in the discussion on Orders From Lugburz, which is why I'm pondering this:

Konrad Klar wrote:Extra possibility does not negate general restrictions, unless stated otherwise on card.

Previously you have said that a card must explicitly state a contradiction to the rule or the rule is assumed to still be in force.

Which is it? Do the cards override the rules by implication or do they not?

"This company may contain a Troll Leader" is a far more direct overriding of the rules than "Short Events may be played at any time, therefore a character may be played at any time."

The general restriction is one character per turn during the organization phase.

Konrad Klar wrote: Some analogy...
There are cards/effects that makes items/information playable at site, and cards/effects that allows immediately play item (regardless it is playable at site or not).
First group (e.g. Dwarven Hoard, Secret Book) contains phrase "this turn" or "until end of turn".
Second group (e.g. Bounty of The Hoard) does not contains such phrase. And major/minor item may not be played after resolution of Bounty of The Hoard.

Bounty of the Hoard wrote:Playable during the site phase. One minor or major item may be played at a tapped site that contains a hoard.

I'm not sure I see the analogy . . . this card specifically states the rule it overrides -- needing an untapped site. And Dwarven Hoard/Secret Book add properties to existing sites, but what rule are they overriding by so doing?

I am waiting for textual evidence on the card itself that even hints that it overrides the first rule for bringing characters into play: that it be during the organization phase. By your own argument, anything else is insufficient.

Konrad Klar wrote:Returning to the cards that allows playing characters. Which part of its text indicates that this cards makes effects that lasts by some time in play after the cards is resolved? Effects that would more comparable to "character is playable" than to "character may be immediately played".

The entire thrust of the text is "Normally, characters must be brought into play at their home sites or a haven, but a character (even a Hobbit) may be brought into play with direct influence at any Free-hold, Border-hold, or Ruins & Lairs."

A better analogy might be Hour of Need:

Playable on an untapped non-warrior, non-Wizard diplomat during the organization phase if you have a faction in your hand. Play a faction from your hand. Tap diplomat who then makes an influence attempt on this faction. Count out the number of contiguous regions from the diplomat's site to the site where the faction is normally playable (including the regions containing both sites)-subtract two plus this number from the diplomat's attempt. If the attempt is unsuccessful, discard the diplomat and faction.

Here is a resource short-event which goes out of its way to specify that it violates faction play rules -- normally, factions may only be played during the site phase, but this card allows a specific violation. It's written out on the card.

No such similar wording is to be found on We Have Come to Kill.

Again, what is to be? Either this statement:

Extra possibility does not negate general restrictions, unless stated otherwise on card.

Is the rule or it is not.

But I do not believe that it should be the rule for some cards and not others.

Bandobras Took wrote:So a special item is playable during any phase because it does not put forth on its conditions "playable during the site phase?" This is the exact same situation.

There are difference between special cards/effects that allow plaiyng items and special items. Such as difference between special cards/effects that creates actions "play character" and characters (sorry I don't know any "special" character).

Bandobras Took wrote:That is not the argument you used in the discussion on Orders From Lugburz, which is why I'm pondering this:
[...]

Orders From Lugburz does not create at its resolution action "play character". Similarly discarding of Secret Book does not create action "you may play information card". First allows company to contain extra leader, second makes information playable.

So any other conditions to play character/information still apply.

Bandobras Took wrote:I'm not sure I see the analogy . . . this card specifically states the rule it overrides -- needing an untapped site.

Bounty of The Hoard requires tapped site that contains hoard. Minor or major items not need to be playable at such site.

Bandobras Took wrote:A better analogy might be Hour of Need:

Good analogy to A Chance Meeting. Hour of Need makes action "play faction" but does'not make faction playable at site. A Chance Meeting makes action "play character" but does not make character possible to play under special conditions after its resolution. Both cards does not make any affects that lasts after its resolution.

Bandobras Took wrote:Again, what is to be? Either this statement:

Extra possibility does not negate general restrictions, unless stated otherwise on card.

Is the rule or it is not.

But I do not believe that it should be the rule for some cards and not others.

Yes. I don't believe too. "Playable ... during the organization phase" is not extra possibility. This is extra limitation. Unless stated otherwise on card resource short-events may be played in any phase of your turn.

Bandobras Took wrote:I am waiting for textual evidence on the card itself that even hints that it overrides the first rule for bringing characters into play: that it be during the organization phase. By your own argument, anything else is insufficient.

Where in rules is stated that characters may be played only in organization phase? I far I know it is stated that during org. phase you may play only one character.
Difference is visible? I understand it as possibility, limited to one character? If this limit would be readed as genaral limit "one character per turn", why character influenced in site phase would be outside this rule and character played with A Chance Meeting not? And again, why Helm of Her Secrecy would be outside of this rule? One "extra character" is outside limit, other within limit?

METW Rulebook, under the Heading 'Bringing Characters Into Play,' [b]not[/b] under the Heading of 'Organization Phase' (numbers are added for clarity, bold for emphasis) wrote:
BRINGING CHARACTERS INTO PLAY

1) During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:

2) You may play a character card.
3) You must have enough general influence or direct influence available to control the character.
4) You must place him at his home site or at any Haven site.

There it is. The rules for bringing characters into play are quite specific, and the first requirement is that it be during the organization phase.

These are not rules for the organization phase.

These are rules for bringing a character into play. I hate to labor the point, but they appear under the heading of "Bringing Characters Into Play."

Since these rules are for bringing a character into play, they must apply every time a character is played unless otherwise stated on a card or in the rules.

As stated in the rules, a character that is influenced may be played after having been revealed.

No problem there -- the rules provide an alternative for playing the character all by themselves.

Helm of Her Secrecy can be read either way -- the conditions for playing it can be read as circumventing the first rule -- whenever there is an attack against the company and you have Eowyn in your hand, it is valid to play her with that company. It can also be literally read as not doing so and only applying during the organization phase. I'll take the point -- as it is worded, Helm of Her Secrecy may not come outside this rule.

But in so saying, I will also say that there is not even a possibility of reading A Chance Meeting in such a way as to overcome the restriction -- still less We Have Come to Kill.

One cannot say that the characters may be brought in at any time simply because the Short Event does not make itself playable only during the Organization Phase for precisely the same reason that the phrase "Playable On An Attack" does not override the rules about facing auto attacks.

There are three types of cards in this regard:
1) Those playable on auto-attacks or characters facing them;
2) Those playable on non-auto-attacks or characters facing them; and
3) Those generically playable on any attack.

It has been said that 1) overrides the rules, but 3) does not -- because 3) does not give specific permission. Even implied permission (i.e., if they didn't want them to be used on auto-attacks they would have combined 3) with 2)) isn't enough.

If implied permission isn't good enough there; if it isn't good enough for The Witch-King's Follower ability to violate the one character per turn limit; if it cannot be used to have a Troll leader in a company; then it also cannot be good enough to circumvent the very first requirement listed under the rules for playing characters.

And I again emphasize, these are the rules for bringing characters into play. Not the rules for the Organization Phase.

Konrad Klar wrote:A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill says nothing about time of playing. Only sets different conditions (specific site type, only under DI and supersedes text of Hobbits).

Bandobras Took quoting the MELE Rulebook wrote:A special item states at what sites and under which conditions it is “playable.”

Konrad Klar wrote: There are difference between special cards/effects that allow playing items and special items. Such as difference between special cards/effects that creates actions "play character" and characters (sorry I don't know any "special" character).

I'm not sure I made my point adequately clear. You said that Chance Meeting says nothing about the time of playing (i. e. which phase). I pointed out that the MELE Rulebook says absolutely nothing about the time of playing Special Items -- the items themselves are supposed to set forth the conditions of their play. There is only one Special Item that specifies the Site Phase, and that is Mithril.

Konrad Klar wrote:

Bandobras Took wrote:That is not the argument you used in the discussion on Orders From Lugburz, which is why I'm pondering this:

Orders From Lugburz does not create at its resolution action "play character". Similarly discarding of Secret Book does not create action "you may play information card". First allows company to contain extra leader, second makes information playable.

Actually, what Orders From Lugburz says is

This company may contain a Troll leader in addition to another leader.

This means what it says: the company may contain a Troll leader.

Konrad Klar wrote:So any other conditions to play character/information still apply.

This is why I'm confused: with some cards it seems like even a direct statement is not enough to override the rules, while with other cards considerable leeway is being given. All Chance Meeting says is that a character may be brought into play at a certain kind of site.

Konrad Klar wrote:Bounty of The Hoard requires tapped site that contains hoard. Minor or major items not need to be playable at such site.

Oops, you're right. It directly overrides two rules.

Konrad Klar wrote:Yes. I don't believe too. "Playable ... during the organization phase" is not extra possibility. This is extra limitation. Unless stated otherwise on card resource short-events may be played in any phase of your turn.

Except for the grand rule: you cannot play cards for no effect.

If it is illegal for a character to be played other than as the rules state and a card must specifically violate this, then you can't play A Chance Meeting: there would be no effect.

If, on the other hand, Chance Meeting throws all the rules for bringing characters into play out the window, then a few other changes are necessary:

1) The Witch-King and Khamul's abilities represent completely different mechanisms for playing a character, and are not limited by the rules for playing Ringwraith Followers found in the MELE Rulebook or the rules for playing characters. This must follow because there is no difference between

You may bring these followers into play

and

A character may be played.

2) Any card that says "Playable on an attack" or "Playable on a character facing an attack" must override any conflicting rules about resources playable when facing an automatic attack. This is because such resources do not say "Playable on a non-automatic attack." By the same reasoning that says Chance Meeting must say "Playable during the Organization Phase" before it can only be played during the Organization Phase for effect, cards must say "Playable on a non-automatic attack" rather than "Playable on an attack" if they are meant to be excluded from such.

3) Special Items, which, according to the MELE rules, specify their own conditions for play, must be considered as playable during any phase at any time if the conditions listed on the card exist. (Side note: the MELE rules only require an untapped site and the site phase for Gold Ring, Minor, Major, and Greater Items. It does not require the same for Special Items.)

Bandobras Took wrote:During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities

Is some difference between:

"During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:"

and

"Only during organization phase, you may perform only one of the following activities:".

There are some standard action, which may/must be performed in given phase. Player turn summary describes these actions, but no actions that are results of other cards. You may draw cards at the start/end M/H phase and in the end-of-turn phase, but Dark Tryst is not limited to these phases.

Bandobras Took wrote:If it is illegal for a character to be played other than as the rules state and a card must specifically violate this, then you can't play A Chance Meeting: there would be no effect.

If playing short-events that allows playing character would be by default limited to org. phase, similarly short-events that allows playing items would by default limited to the site phase. However all such short-events are limited to site phase by its own text. Why? Is its text redundant with standard rules? Or rather because resource short-events without such text could be played in any phase?

Bandobras Took wrote:This is why I'm confused: with some cards it seems like even a direct statement is not enough to override the rules, while with other cards considerable leeway is being given. All Chance Meeting says is that a character may be brought into play at a certain kind of site.

What I'm trying to say:

If card creates action, this action may/must be taken at resolution of this card according to conditions specified on card.
This is function of this card. If card is resource short-event or permanent-event it may be played in any phase unless stated otherwise on card.

If card does not create action, but continuous effect that removes some limitation, other limitations still exists. This is function of this card.

Bandobras Took wrote:I'm not sure I made my point adequately clear. You said that Chance Meeting says nothing about the time of playing (i. e. which phase). I pointed out that the MELE Rulebook says absolutely nothing about the time of playing Special Items -- the items themselves are supposed to set forth the conditions of their play. There is only one Special Item that specifies the Site Phase, and that is Mithril.

No need of saying about time of playing special items, because they are subset of items.

Whole discussion leads to the one question:

Which is correct?

a) Resource events that makes certain actions may by played only during phase in which these actions would be normally taken.

or

b) Resource events may be played in any phase (if not limited by its own text) and actions created by such events takes place at its resolution regardless of phase in which these actions would normally be taken.

?


Because all short-events that makes action like "you may play item" are limited by its own text to the site phase "a)" does not seem be general rule.

Bandobras Took wrote:(Side note: the MELE rules only require an untapped site and the site phase for Gold Ring, Minor, Major, and Greater Items. It does not require the same for Special Items.)

This is here:

A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site.

I think this discussion probably needs some fresh input or ideally clarification or a ruling from the NetRep team. I think bandobras makes some very valid points, most of which remain unconvincingly answered. Like he said, bringing characters into play has a special section in the rules named exactly that. Chance Meeting and WHCtK don't make it clear that the Organisation Phase requirement of that section is overridden. Nevertheless, it is ruled/accepted that it is. On the other hand, the ruling that was made regarding the Witch-king/Khamul and RW followers in general consistently referred back to that "Bringing Characters into Play" section. Why the inconsistency, and why doesn't the Witch-king or Khamul card allow the play of a RW character over and above the 1 per turn?

And I think that's just it, the fundamental issue here is one of (in)consistency. Some cards seem to bend the rules more or have been given leeway to do so. Others haven't...

Jambo wrote:On the hand, the ruling that was made regarding the Witch-king/Khamul and RW followers in general consistently referred back to that "Bringing Characters into Play" section. Why the inconsistency?

Yet before some fresh input will arrive...

Witch-king/Khamul does not make at its resolution (i.e. when Witch-king/Khamul is played) action "play character". It sets extra possibility that may be used later, as long as card is in play, similarly as Open to The Summons or Thrall of The Voice. These cards also does not make at its resolution action of "[You may] play character".

No inconsistency...

Speaking of Open to the Summons:

Open to the Summons
Permanent-event
Playable on a minion company. One agent minion may be played with target company at a Darkhaven - place this card with the agent. -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1. This card may be played with a starting company in lieu of a minor item. When played as such, reveal it when starting companies are determined as if it were a character. Cannot be duplicated on a given character.

Ok, now here's where my in-depth knowledge of the rules might let me down, but what's to stop someone playing this card during the site phase and, as per CM or WHCtK, playing a character during the site phase? After all, there's no Org. phase restriction mentioned. Or, is there a distinction between short events and permanent events that I'm not aware of?

Then there's also Strider:

Strider
Unique. Manifestation of Aragorn II. You may bring Aragorn II into play with Strider's company, removing Strider from the game and automatically transferring all cards on Strider to Aragorn II. +3 direct influence against the Rangers of the North faction. Tap Strider to search your discard pile for any one item, ally, or faction playable at his current sitethe site must be in Arthedain, Cardolan, Rhudaur, or The Shire.

When can Aragorn replace Strider? During the Org phase only or during any phase? And is it over and above the 1 character per turn limit?

For what it's worth, both CM and WHCtK also both say: "A character may be brought..."