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CDavis7M
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First of all, I'm not really sure why this discussion on Doubled Vigilance is being raised in the Abductor post. It is related to the tangent discussion but maybe this discussion... ah... whatever.
sarma72 wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:57 am On double vigilance, the ruling digest 91 confirms the statement that during the site phase "you cannot play a resouce until facing the automatic-attack (unless it spcecifically affects this automatic-attack)." Does this change the rule in the METW booklet that, aside from long event of from specific restrictions on a card text, resources can be played at any time during your own turn?
Let's quote METW then. Section 10 on : Playing & Drawing Cards states "you may play resource cards anytime during your own turn unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves." This rule is different what what you said. Resource cannot be played at any time during your own turn. Only when not specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards. There are many cards that are not playable during certain parts of the turn and there are a few rules on when cards can or cannot be played.

Let's back up. One of the fundamental game design principles in MECCG is that the hazard player plays hazards during the movement/hazard phase and only that phase. This means that the resource player can play resources outside of the M/H phase without any opportunity for the hazard player to respond. However, the Designers intended for the hazard player to be able to respond at least until the automatic attack has been faced. Otherwise many of the automatic-attack hazards don't make sense, even playing on-guard doesn't cut it.

The universal truth is that resource players are trying to play Marvels Told without it being negated and hazard players are seeking to play hazards without them being negated by Marvels (etc.). Therefore, in order to achieve the design goal of allowing the hazard player to respond, the Designers have given the rules annotations and clarifications on movement to ensure that the hazard player has the ability to play Many Sorrows or Call of Home, or whatever, in response to Marvels Told. The resource player cannot just wait until the site phase to play Marvels Told without fear of it being negated. Marvels Told must be played in the Movement/Hazard phase so that the Hazard player has a chance to respond with Many Sorrows, Call of Home, whatever. This is only fair.

Rules and Rulings that reflect this game design principle:
Lidless Eye Companion - Rules Annotations, General wrote:Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played--and no resource effects can be activated--until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
CRF, Turn Sequence Rulings, M/H phase, General wrote:Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.
Annotation 18: When a defending player chooses to resolve a strike against a particular character, the only actions that may be taken by either player until the strike dice-roll is made are the following: playing hazard cards that affect the strike, the attacker may decide to use any or all of his remaining -1 modifications due to strikes in excess of the company's size, a target untapped character may take a -3 modification so that he will not automatically tap, and the defending character may play resource cards that affect the strike. An action that has the condition that a target character tap, but which otherwise has an effect not outlined here, may not be declared at this point. This is true even if the recipient of the strike would be the target character tapping and thus receive -1 to his prowess.
A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack. Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it, although cancelling does.
As a side note, the errata on returning to origin has a similar basis. If the hazard player cannot play hazards to disrupt the resource player's site phase then the resource player should not get their site phase.
Rules Erratum: If a company returns to its site of origin, it may do nothing during its site phase. A company failing it's underdeeps movement roll is not effected by this rule.
What is a "ruling" and how is it different from the rules:

Some players try to take the CRF rulings out of context or read more into them than what is there. The first thing to recognize about these M/H phase and Site Phase rulings in the CRF is stated in the introduction to the CRF: "The Turn Sequence and Rulings by Term sections are specifically considered clarifications to the rules." That's right. There is some other rule that is an actual rule that this ruling is clarifying.

It's also crucial to recognize that the rulings are made in response to specific questions (which are not also included in the CRF) and so the answer may not apply to other situations that were not being considered.

As Ichabod himself said to some player taking the CRF out of context "Before you confuse anyone, that [CRF ruling] is actually the secondary rule."

So, then, what is the rule that "A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack. Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it, although cancelling does." is clarifying? It must be clarifying the Full Turn Summary as annotated by the Wizards/LE companion.
MH and Site Phase.PNG
MH and Site Phase.PNG (89.92 KiB) Viewed 525 times
The M/H phase and the site phase are both "procedures" in which the player follows a series of steps. If they player does something that is not part of those steps then they are not following the steps -- they are not following the rules. It is as simple as that. At Step 2 the company is attacked by the automatic attack and it resolves normally. The company cannot play Gates or Morning or Marvels Told (outside of the strike sequence) because playing those resources is not mentioned in Step 2. You can play resources that are playable during the strike sequence as this is part of resolving the attack. You can play resources that affect the strike dice roll at Step 4 of the strike sequence. You can affect the dice roll by adding an effect or removing an effect on the dice roll (e.g., on prowess of the strike or prowess of the character). You can also cancel a strike roll or cancel every roll by cancelling the attack. But you cannot just play any resource you want. This extend to the player, not just the characters in the company. This is because the procedure must be followed by the player.

The M/H phase is also a procedure and this is the same reason for all of the ruling on the M/H phase like how revealing the site and drawing cards happens at the same time, and how removing the site and reconciling happen at the same time, etc. These concepts were all present in the original rules, and then they were clarified.

----------

By the way, there was much debate about this ruling back in the day and the same digest 91 that was mentioned above specifically covers Doubled Vigilance as well. It creates an attack and you can play resources that affect the strike dice roll, including cancelling that dice roll.
From: ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien)
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 91
Date: 1998/06/07
Message-ID: <ichabod-0706981324120001@dialin1052.cstone.net>
X-Deja-AN: 360448101
Organization: Iron Crown Enterprises
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc

These are official rulings made on the METW mailing list. To subscribe to
the mailing list send "subscribe metw <your email>" to list...@tower.ml.org.

6/7/98, Episode 91: Censored

...

From: "M. Sosa" <mso...@fiu.edu>

> Given you cannot play a resouce until facing the auto-attack (unless it
>spcecifically affects this auto attack).
> Given there is no "umbrella" M/H phase or site phase.
>
> Two companies, one at a Haven. Can the company at a Haven begin it's site
>phase first (no auto-attack) and MT or use that rooster card to cancel
>a perm event? Let's say this is a perm event that negatively affects the
>second company.

Yes. Once they have faced the automatic-attack, there are no more odd
rules about what resources may be played.

------

From: Serge.Dan...@aar.alcatel-alsthom.fr (Serge Danzanvilliers)

[concerning automatic-attacks]

>This ruling is just plain nonsense ;-) If I can discard a Scimitar after
>strikes have been assigned, I should be able to discard a Moon is Dead just
>before strikes are assigned. Why can I play MT during the strike sequence but
>not just before the strike sequence (when I can play concealment) ???

There need to be limits on resource play while facing automatic-attacks
to prevent abuse of certain cards. To be consistent I put the same
restrictions on autos that are on attacks occuring in the middle of
the resolution of a card. Those restrictions only allow the play of
resources outside the strike sequence if they cancel the attack.

>Hazards
>like Incite/Awaken or Redoubled Force or Doubled Vigilance become way too
>powerful if one cannot cancel them when played on-guard.

Note that Doubled Vigilance and the Incites could be canceled, since
they make another attack.
If there is combat, the resource player can play a resource at Step 4 of the strike sequence that affects the strike dice roll. They can also cancel every strike dice roll by cancelling the attack. This fact of the game does contradict the site phase clarification "A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack." But that is just a secondary ruling clarifying the actual rules in response to a question about the usual site phase without Doubled Vigilance being in play.

Turn sequence rulings and rulings by term are just clarifications to the rules, not strict requirements. Context matters. You have to look for the context, either in the original ruling or in the rules.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:22 am Marvels Told must be played in the Movement/Hazard phase so that the Hazard player has a chance to respond with Many Sorrows, Call of Home, whatever. This is only fair.
Not backed by any rule.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:22 am The company cannot play Gates or Morning or Marvels Told (outside of the strike sequence) because playing those resources is not mentioned in Step 2
The company cannot play Gates or Morning at all. This is not company's activity. This card may be played even if there are no characters in play.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:35 am
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:22 am Marvels Told must be played in the Movement/Hazard phase so that the Hazard player has a chance to respond with Many Sorrows, Call of Home, whatever. This is only fair.
Not backed by any rule.
Context is important. I was just discussing the general design principles. Those principles have rules. And like I said, Marvels can be played during the Strike Sequence.

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:35 am
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:22 am The company cannot play Gates or Morning or Marvels Told (outside of the strike sequence) because playing those resources is not mentioned in Step 2
The company cannot play Gates or Morning at all. This is not company's activity. This card may be played even if there are no characters in play.
Yes, and this distinction between the player and the company was recognized and addressed by ICE. They specified that the restriction is on the player, not just the company as METW and MELE suggests. These were rulings late in MECCG's life when Ichabod, the netrep, was actually the Assistant Series Editor and later the full MECCG Series Editor. Ichabod made these rulings and he wrote the CD/Balrog rules summary, which incorporated these rule changes and other rule changes (e.g., Annotations on M/H phase, etc).
From: ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien)
Subject: Re: [MECCG] Rules Digest 60
Date: 1998/03/27
Message-ID: <ichabod-2703981130320001@dialin1026.cstone.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 338292949
References: <ichabod-2303981033540001@dialin1018.cstone.net> <PITZ.98Mar23172128@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de> <ichabod-2403981024280001@dialin1110.cstone.net> <PITZ.98Mar24173503@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de> <ichabod-2603981111550001@dialin1115.cstone.net> <PITZ.98Mar26175546@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Organization: Iron Crown Enterprises
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc

In article <PITZ.98M...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de>,
pi...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Michael Pitz ) wrote:

> In article <ichabod-2603...@dialin1115.cstone.net>
ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien) writes:
>
>
> You can't play We Have Come to Kill during the site phase before the
> automatic-attack is faced. That's the rules. You can't do anything
> during the site phase before the automatic-attack is faced, unless
> it involves facing the automatic-attack. Therefore, you can't bring
> a character into play with WHCtK during the site phase if no one
> else is at the site, since you can never face the automatic-attack
> before doing so.
>
> The Rules say:
> "A company (!) may not play any resource during the site phase until they have
> faced all automatic-attacks"
>
> But there is no company!
> And We Have Come To Kill is not played by a company.


It does not matter. You may not play anything during a site phase, unless
the company whose site phase it is has entered the site and thus faced
the automatic-attack.

Think about it. There is one site phase for each company. If there
is no company, there is no site phase.


> This would include I cannot play, say a Gates of
> Morning, if I have faced at least one automatic attack at one site.


I think you mean 'if I have *not* faced at least one...' In that case
it is true. You must have faced an automatic attack to play Gates
of Morning during the site phase.


> So, I cannot play a Marvel's Told, which I had just drawn, to remove a Despair
> of The Heart because I don't want to make a corruption check when a character
> becomes wouded by the automatick attack?


Nope.

> So, I cannot play Dark Tryst in the site phase to draw more cards and to
decide
> after that if I will enter the site? (Can be nice while waiting at a dragon's
> lair if you're waiting for your hoard item).


Nope.

> Or, how about that:
>
> I have a Ringwraith at a Darkhaven. He enters the site (no auto), THEN "he"
> plays We Have Come To Kill.
> After that, the company (of one character) which has just come into play
> will face their automatick attack if they want to play something.


That only works if you bring the character into play at the site with
the Ringwraith. Since the character is joining a company, that company
must have faced the automatic attack that turn.


------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien Remove spamblock to reply by email
Assistant Editor, Iron Crown Enterprises Me:CCG Official Netrep
http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod/ Alternate Official Me:CCG Website
------- "We shall pick up an existence by its frogs" -Fort -------
From: ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien)
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 88
Date: 1998/05/31
Message-ID: <ichabod-3105981259340001@dialin1040.cstone.net>
X-Deja-AN: 358208845
Organization: Iron Crown Enterprises
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc

These are official rulings made on the METW mailing list. To subscribe to
the mailing list send "subscribe metw <your email>" to list...@tower.ml.org.

5/31/98, Episode 88: A Morannon question? Now I've seen it all.

------

From: Vincent LEVOIR <vinc...@club-internet.fr>

>> From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>
>>
>> [play of hazards example snipped]
>>
>> >But for the movement/hazard phase of the next company during the same turn,
>> >the hazard player gets to choose to apply them in any order he wants,
>> >right?
>>
>> Correct. If they are both in play at the begining of the movement/hazard
>> phase, the hazard player chooses the order to apply them in.
>
>I disagree that, at it seems there is a mistake between a company's m/h
>phase and the turn's m/h phase (if such a distinction exists ?)


No distinction exists because there is no "turn's movement/hazard phase."
Every m/h phase is associated with a specific company, there is no
umbrella m/h phase that covers all of one player's m/h phases in one
turn.


>Suppose thre is a Reluctant Final Party (again this card) in play, and
>that you have some allies that are going to be discarded.
>As a company is not at its site until the site phase
>the allies are not in trouble until the site phase.
>
>Now, let suppose you draw a Marvels Told when resseting your hand after
>your first company moves. You can't play it yet, not until the m/h phase
>of your next company (no cards/actions/effect can be played/triggered
>between these phase, so I believe).
>
>But if you draw your Marvels Told when resseting for your last company,
>you can't play it until you have faced the auto-attack.
By the time, the
>site phase would have begin, so your companies (and allies) will
>effectively be at their new site, so allies are discarded.


That is correct except for one thing: The company is not at the site
until their site phase. Just as there is no umbrella m/h phase, there
is no umbrella site phase. So, if you have multiple companies, one
without allies in danger could enter the site first, Marvels Told
the Reluctant Final Parting, and then the other could start their
site phase safely.


------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien Remove spamblock to reply by email
Assistant Editor, Iron Crown Enterprises Me:CCG Official Netrep
http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod/ Alternate Official Me:CCG Website
------- "We shall pick up an existence by its frogs" -Fort -------
From these rulings, you can see that you cannot play Gates of Morning until the automatic attack has been faced. You cannot play Marvels Told until the auto is faced. Same for Dark Tryst, WhctK. Etc etc on and on. The player cannot play anything until the automatic attack has been faced. The only excepts are for playing combat resources. You can cancel the attack or play resources (potentially marvels, etc) in the strike sequence if it affects that dice roll.

The actual rules were revised as well. There is no distinction for the company. In order to do anything -- in bold -- you must first enter the site and face the auto.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:56 am Context is important. I was just discussing the general design principles. Those principles have rules. And like I said, Marvels can be played during the Strike Sequence.
In order to do anything during the site phase, you must first enter the site and then face any and all automatic-attacks listed on the site card (a character at his home site may tap to cancel one automatic-attack at his home site).

You may search for context, but you (player) cannot enter a site. A company is able.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:35 am
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:56 am Context is important. I was just discussing the general design principles. Those principles have rules. And like I said, Marvels can be played during the Strike Sequence.
In order to do anything during the site phase, you must first enter the site and then face any and all automatic-attacks listed on the site card (a character at his home site may tap to cancel one automatic-attack at his home site).

You may search for context, but you (player) cannot enter a site. A company is able.
I don't see any confusion about what "entering" the site means. I'm Just letting you know how ICE said the game should be played at the beginning of the Site Phase.

If the Resource player wants to play resources before facing the automatic attack then they need to play them during the M/H phase so that the Hazard player has the opportunity to play hazards. The Resource player cannot just wait until the Site Phase so that the Hazard player has no chance to respond. It doesn't matter whether the resource played by the resource player is considered to be played by a character in the company or not. The players cannot play or do anything except combat actions before the automatic attack has been faced.
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