Council of Elrond

Bandobras Took wrote:The rules for untapping cards mention nothing about a phase restriction.

Konrad Klar wrote:For exactly that reason I'm surprised why you are quoting them (rules for untapping cards). Matter of my interest here was only which actions may/must be taken in given phase.

Bandobras Took wrote:The rules for playing characters do. This would be why your example is completely irrelevant. I'll freely continue the discussion in another thread if you wish.

But that matter of interest is the wrong perspective on the problem. If I want to know how to untap a card in the METW game, I go to the relevant rules section that tells me about untapping cards. All I find is:

To tap a card, rotate it 90° so that it is turned sideways-to untap a card, rotate it back 90° to its normal position.

There is no mention of a specific phase in the rules for untapping cards, so effects which untap a card may be initiated freely according to the limitations on a given card. Additionally, there is a phase of the game which permits you to untap all your cards. But this has no bearing on how to untap a card.

If I want to know how to bring a character into play, I go to the relevant rules section that tells me about playing characters. What I find is:

During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:

* You may play a character card. You must have enough general influence or direct influence available to control the character. You must place him at his home site or at any Haven site.
* You may play a Wizard card if you do not have one in play. You must place a Wizard at his home site or at Rivendell. You need not control a Wizard with influence-he represents you, the player.

When you play a character, you may place him into a company already at his arrival site or he may become a new company (consisting of one character). In the second case, you must place the arrival site card next to the character played.

In this case, the method for bringing a character into play is clear, and the rules only provide for such to occur in the organization phase. They also require a home site or haven for the character card in question. This is not a case of a phase providing an opportunity to make use of a game mechanic. This is a case of the game mechanic requiring a given phase. This is made more clear by the Standard rules for playing a character as a result of an influence attempt against an opponent. This mechanic must happen during the site phase. The two are a different mechanic even though the effect is the same. Character play must follow a given mechanic unless there is a specific abrogation of some part of it. Hence:

By the next occasion. For example in thread "Whether Eowyn may be played with help of Helm of Her Secrecy only in conjunction with The Hunt, or The Great Hunt?.

Helm of Her Secrecy wrote:If Eowyn is in your hand, this card is playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned) -- the company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site. If enough influence is available to control her, Eowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company.

Here we see a key phrase that differentiates Helm of Her Secrecy from a card such as Chance Meeting. The card states that it is playable on a company facing an attack. There is no such similar phrasing on Chance Meeting. The wording on Chance Meeting only overrides one part of a mechanic for character play, and that is the home site/haven requirement.

A card which untaps another card need not consider the question. There is no phase requirement associated with the mechanic of untapping a card. There is merely a phase which makes use of the mechanic. The distinction is crucial.

Bandobras Took wrote: If I want to know how to bring a character into play, I go to the relevant rules section that tells me about playing characters. What I find is:

During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:

* You may play a character card. You must have enough general influence or direct influence available to control the character. You must place him at his home site or at any Haven site.
* You may play a Wizard card if you do not have one in play. You must place a Wizard at his home site or at Rivendell. You need not control a Wizard with influence-he represents you, the player.

When you play a character, you may place him into a company already at his arrival site or he may become a new company (consisting of one character). In the second case, you must place the arrival site card next to the character played.

And now you know that you may play a character card or a Wizard* card (but not both) in organization phase and how to play them.

Bandobras Took wrote: In this case, the method for bringing a character into play is clear, and the rules only provide for such to occur in the organization phase. They also require a home site or haven for the character card in question. This is not a case of a phase providing an opportunity to make use of a game mechanic. This is a case of the game mechanic requiring a given phase.

A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site. In addition, the company must face any automatic-attacks located at the same site before such a card can be played. Resource events do not generally require an untapped site nor that the automatic-attack be faced.

Underline mine.
And now (for contrast) I know that a faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during my site phase.

Bandobras Took wrote:Here we see a key phrase that differentiates Helm of Her Secrecy from a card such as Chance Meeting. The card states that it is playable on a company facing an attack. There is no such similar phrasing on Chance Meeting. The wording on Chance Meeting only overrides one part of a mechanic for character play, and that is the home site/haven requirement.

Extra condition does not remove standard condition. For example the Army of Death requires that untapped character must be Aragorn II and Path of the Dead must be played the same turn. It does not remove conditions untapped site and site phase. Right?
So if you somene that characters may be played only in organization phase likewise factions may be played only in site phase, why he demand site phase for Army of Death, organization phase for WHCtK, ACM, and does not demand organization phase for Helm of Her Secrecy?



*) Someone may be also under impression that Wizard is not character.

Extra condition does not remove standard condition.

But alternate condition does. Helm of Her Secrecy sets up an alternate condition. This is the kind of phrasing that Chance Meeting/We Have Come To Kill need, but sorely lack.

Army of the Dead is a particularly good example. It does not require an influence check even though the rules for playing a faction say you must make an influence attempt. But even though you may play the faction without the influence check, all the other rules for playing a faction apply.

Hour of Need is much closer to the situation of Helm of Her Secrecy:

Playable on an untapped non-warrior, non-Wizard diplomat during the organization phase if you have a faction in your hand. Play a faction from your hand. Tap diplomat who then makes an influence attempt on this faction. Count out the number of contiguous regions from the diplomat's site to the site where the faction is normally playable (including the regions containing both sites)-subtract two plus this number from the diplomat's attempt. If the attempt is unsuccessful, discard the diplomat and faction.

Normal restriction of faction play is to the site phase. However, this card creates an alternate time for playing a faction through wording detailing when it is to be played. So also Helm of Her Secrecy creates a situation for an alternate time. It is the absence of such phrasing on Chance Meeting (or Old Road, if we need a faction example) that makes the basic time (organization or site phase, respectively) apply.

But alternate condition does

"Any free-hold, border-hold etc." would alter normal site requirements, both mutually precludes each other. Combat does not alter phase nor site requirements. It is posible to face Nazgul attack in organization phase by company at Edoras or at Haven.

Hour of Need is much closer to the situation of Helm of Her Secrecy

Is And Forth He Hastened restricted to any phase?
If no, why? Because it is an resource short-event, so by default may be played in any phase its player turn. And nothing in text of card limits it to the given phase.

Now, according to you, short-event that is limited by its text to the given phase can make something than unlimited short-event cannot do. It may make actions normally possible in other phase. If it would not be limited to the organization phase, it would limited to the site phase (when faction normally is played).
Additionally Helm of Her Secrecy that states extraordinary condition of playing Eowin, but is not restricted by its text to the given phase can be used in any phase to play Eowin.

And Forth He Hastened is not restricted to any phase because the mechanic of untapping a character is not restricted to any phase.

If a card affects a mechanic that is normally restricted to a given phase, then that card will only be playable when the mechanic is available unless alternate conditions for the time of play are given on the card itself. A company may face an attack during any one of a number of a phases, but since Helm of Her Secrecy expressly allows itself to be played at that time, it's fine.

Cards without such phrasing that affect a mechanic limited to a given phase must be played when they apply to a situation, i.e. when the mechanic is available.

Helm of her Secrecy is played on something (on company facing an attack) and WHCtK and ACM are not played on anything.
So Helm of Her Secrecy expressly allows itself to be played at that time and WHCtK and ACM does not?

Cards without such phrasing that affect a mechanic limited to a given phase must be played when they apply to a situation, i.e. when the mechanic is available.

That invariably leads to question: why short-events that allow playing extra item are (by their text) playable during site phase?
Redundancy?

Yes, pretty much. Chance Meeting, We Have Come To Kill, and Old Road are the only 3 event cards in the game I can think of that lack a timing phrase for a mechanic normally limited to a phase. More generally, redundancy helps communicate limitations to those learning the game/not rules geeks like we are.

Interesting side note to this discussion:

MELE Standard Rules, Bringing Characters Into Play wrote:BRINGING CHARACTERS INTO PLAY
To play a character card, you must have enough general influence or direct influence available to control the character into play. In addition, you must meet both of the following requirements:
· If the character is not an agent, you may only play him at his home site at any Darkhaven site. If the character is an agent, you may only play him at his home site.
· If your Ringwraith is in play, your Ringwraith (or a character with enough direct influence to control the character to be played) must be at the site at which the character is to be played.

RINGWRAITH FOLLOWERS
If the following conditions are met, you may bring another (different) Ringwraith character into play at your Ringwraith's site - such a character is called a "Ringwraith follower."
· Your Ringwraith is already in play.
· Your Ringwraith is at a Darkhaven or he is at the Ringwraith follower's home site.
· You have the card of the additional Ringwraith in your hand.
· Your opponent does not have the Ringwraith already in play and the Ringwraith has not been eliminated.
· You have the card or ability allowing a Ringwraith follower to be played (e.g., They Ride Together, The Witch-king's ability).
A Ringwraith follower must always be under the control of your Ringwraith and may move to non-Darkhaven sites with your Ringwraith. Your Ringwraith must use 1 point of direct influence to control each Ringwraith follower. Your Ringwraith follower may not be influenced away by your opponent.
A Ringwraith follower may not use any of its special abilities. Ûvatha's ability to automatically join another Ringwraith's company is an exception to this.
When you reveal your Ringwraith, your opponent must discard any identical Ringwraith card that has been played as a Ringwraith follower.

The separate Ringwraith Followers section suggests that this is a different mechanic from normal character play, as well. Play of Ringwraith Followers does not seem to be limited to a phase, but rather limited to a card giving the ability. Thus mention of the organization phase on Witch-King and Khamul is not redundant, and lack of a timing phrase on Black Horse means that such allows Ringwraith Followers to be played when the above conditions are met.

This would also force me to agree that We Have Come To Kill cannot be used with Ringwraith Followers -- it is a card that affects normal character play, not Ringwraith Follower play.

Edited for Typos

Incidentally, here is a quote from the MEBA rules:

Company composition changes, including reorganizing companies and bringing a character into play, must all be done at the same time during the organization phase. During this time no other actions may be taken.

So there is the MELE statements for the mechanic of bringing a character into play, and it is borne out by a more explicit statement in the MEBA rules.

What does it mean?
That bringing a character into play may not be done outside of organization phase?

BTW. Text almost identical to your quote is present in CRF, Turn Sequence, Organization Phase, Organizing Companies.

I'm just saying it's more support for the idea that a card must state alternate time for playability before it will allow character play outside the organization phase/influence attempt.

CRF, Rulings by Term, Corruption wrote:Rules Erratum: Corruption cards must always start a chain of effects. [Effective 8/27/
98]

According tha same logic as your, someone could say, that each chain of effects must be started by corruption card, so basically no coe may be started until hazard player play corruption card in M/H phase.
Such interpretation excludes possibility of coe not started by corruption card. As as your interpretation of MEBA rule excludes possibility of bringing a character outside the organization phase.
Your logic is wrong.

My interpretation of both quotes are respectively:
- corruption cards may not be next declared actions in chain of effects.
- company composition changes made during the organization phase, including reorganizing companies and bringing a character into play must all be done at the same time. During this time no other actions may be taken.

CRF, Rulings by Term, Corruption says only about coe that includes corruption card. Not about every possible coe.
MEBA/CRF rule says only about bringing a character and other company composition changes performed during organization phase. Not about every possible act of bringing a character/company composition changes.

I know; it's not proof. It's just some support.