That Ain't no Secret + Man of Skill

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Konrad Klar
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Bruce wrote:The point is that Remnants does not create any MP value on itself, basically its effect is that an MP value which would not be counted is now counted.
Which MP value which would not be counted is now counted? "miscellaneous marshalling points equal to the kill marshalling"?
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Bruce
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I refer to the value, i.e. the mere amount of MPs. I'm not referring to as what it is counted. It would not be counted (as kill MPs) and is now counted (as misc MPs) thanks to RooR. Where did I say that a kill MP is the same thing as a misc MP?

Btw, I'd be glad if we'd stick to the main point, i.e. Man of Skill. If we want to talk about Remnants of old Robberies (and I have some doubt about it, given the fact that nobody ever plays that card) we can open another topic for that. ;)
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Konrad Klar
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Bruce wrote:Btw, I'd be glad if we'd stick to the main point, i.e. Man of Skill. If we want to talk about Remnants of old Robberies (and I have some doubt about it, given the fact that nobody ever plays that card) we can open another topic for that. ;)
I would be glad if it would be possible to speak about such problems without referring to the the other in order of searching for analogies. But it is unfortunately very difficult.
Bruce wrote:I refer to the value, i.e. the mere amount of MPs. I'm not referring to as what it is counted.
I do not reffer to the amunt of of MPs nor to the way they are counted.
I refer to the fact what is actually counted. What is counted here are MPs that Remnants of Old Robberies gives - a copy of value printed on creature card, converted to the Misc MPs from Kill MPs.
I.e. creature itself still gives no Kill MPs for minion (or no/1/Full Kill MPs for FW, depending on abilities, stage resorces, and hazards in play).
Bruce wrote:MEWH rulesbook state that stage cards can modify the amount MPs a resource is worth. "Modifying" a certain value means "changing" the amount of that value. A value which does not exist simply cannot be changed.
I hope that will be counted as "on topic".
A value which does not exist cannot be changed but may be created from scratch. Stating that stage cards can modify the amount MPs, does not mean the stage cards cannot make anything else. Rules does not prevent cards from creating values that otherwise would not exist.

Similarly rules on on-guards states the hazard revealed from on-guard when a company enters site must be creature, or it must affect AA, so card that only creates new AA cannot be revealed. It does not mean that such hazard cannot create AA. Balrog of Moria makes both - it affects existing AA and creates new one.

P.S.
I wrote:So Earth of Galadriel's Orchard, Book of Mazarbool, or Sapling of The White Tree cannot be used as condition for Tower Rided (by any player).
Fallen Gandalf's player with Give Welcome to The Unexcepted (on Gandalf) can use Book of Mazarbul as condition for Tower Raided.
And sorry for typos...
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Bruce
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Konrad Klar wrote:
Bruce wrote:Btw, I'd be glad if we'd stick to the main point, i.e. Man of Skill. If we want to talk about Remnants of old Robberies (and I have some doubt about it, given the fact that nobody ever plays that card) we can open another topic for that. ;)
I would be glad if it would be possible to speak about such problems without referring to the the other in order of searching for analogies. But it is unfortunately very difficult.
Resorting to analogies can be helpful to shed some light on the issues discussed, that's not a problem. The problem is when a discussion starts with a certain topic and then it turns into a discussion about Remnants of old Robberies. :)
But fortunately that risk is now avoided. ;)
Konrad Klar wrote:Similarly rules on on-guards states the hazard revealed from on-guard when a company enters site must be creature, or it must affect AA, so card that only creates new AA cannot be revealed. It does not mean that such hazard cannot create AA. Balrog of Moria makes both - it affects existing AA and creates new one.
I agree. "Affecting" something has a broader sense than just "modifying" it. For instance, affecting an AA includes creating a copy of it. Likewise, if MEWH rules stated that Stage resources can affect MPs, that would include creating an MP value from scratch for a non-MP resource.

You said that rules do not generally prevent cards from creating values that otherwise would not exist. That's true. In fact, Helms of Iron can create a body attribute which would not exist. But when the rules say that a stage card can modify an MP value, this clearly limits the scope of a stage card's possible effects, and thus excludes the creation of MP values where they do not exist, unless this possibility is explicitly stated elsewhere.
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Bandobras Took
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Konrad Klar wrote:
Bandobras took wrote:Is there a difference between "Worth" MPs and "Gives" MPs?
No.
There is difference between "how much" and "when". Saruman's ability or Legacy of Smiths would make the Earth of Galadriel's Orchard worth 2MP, but still not until stored at Bag End. For other FW without Legacy of Smiths it is worth 1MP only if stored at Bag End.*
This is the essence of my argument regarding Man of Skill+Ain't No Secret. Man of Skill does not make them worth Full MPs, it assigns a value to them that comes into effect immediately. Ain't No Secret's reference to "when" is superseded by Man of Skill's continuous effect.

And I think that's all I have to say on the subject. Anything more would probably just be circular arguing. :)
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Konrad Klar
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I agree. "Affecting" something has a broader sense than just "modifying" it. For instance, affecting an AA includes creating a copy of it. Likewise, if MEWH rules stated that Stage resources can affect MPs, that would include creating an MP value from scratch for a non-MP resource.
So you agree here with something with which I disagree.

May point was quite different. To put it simple:
White Hand rules explicitly allows stage resources for modifying MP of resources. White Hand rules does not explicitly forbid stage resources adding MP to the card that does not have MP value at all.

Moot point is (as I understand) whether allowing for modifying does (impilcitly) mean that only modyfing is allowed, and adding new value is forbidden.
I think no. "May make X" does not automatically mean "May make only X (but no Y)". At the best second statement may be result of context in which first statement is written.

Of course my view on the particular problem that is matter of this topic (MoS + That Ain't No Secret) is independent from resolution of that question. Just because That Ain't No Secret has a printed MP value already.
"How much is worth" and "when it is worth" are separate things. Blind to All Else makes ring items worth full MP, but it does not mean that hero dwarven ring will be worth 6MP if not beared by dwarf. Legacy of Smiths does not make unstored Palantiri worth 5MP. It is my view on that problem.

Bandobras Took wrote:This is the essence of my argument regarding Man of Skill+Ain't No Secret.
Hmmm...
The same essence and different conclusions.
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Vastor Peredhil
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Hi all,
"How much is worth" and "when it is worth" are separate things. Blind to All Else makes ring items worth full MP, but it does not mean that hero dwarven ring will be worth 6MP if not beared by dwarf. Legacy of Smiths does not make unstored Palantiri worth 5MP. It is my view on that problem.
the "when" was also th key problem for me, not that it gives 2MP when stored but before

mfg Nico
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Konrad Klar
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White Hand, Overview, Marshalling Points wrote:Marshalling points for stage resource cards are handled normally (i.e., as printed on
the card). However, all other marshalling point cards are only worth 1 marshalling
point each to a Fallen- wizard (regardless of their printed value).
Is Elven Rope not stored with creature worth 1MP for non-Saruman FW players (without Legacy of Smith)?
If no, why? Because phrase "(regardless of their printed value)" means that all other conditions must be observed and lack of this phrase (Man of Skills does not have such) automatically means "regardless of of their printed value and any printed conditions"?
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Shapeshifter
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There is a NetRep Ruling about exactly the same question.
[NetRep] Rulings Digest #103 wrote:Info perm events like That Ain't No Secret require being stored to
receive its marshalling points. Would the MPs granted by Man of Skill
supercede the storage requirement, and make this card immediately worth
2 MPs?
*** Yes.
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CDavis7M
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Guess who else also ruled on this issue?
Subject: Re: MECCG Questions.
Date: 1998/03/10

> The card in question; 'Man of Skill' from MEWH
> If read literally the Corrupt wizard gets two MP the second a information
> site requiring permanant event hits the table.
> i.e. The moment I tap someone to play That ain't no secret... boom 2MP.
> Is this correct?

Yes.

------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien Remove spamblock to reply by email
Assistant Editor, Iron Crown Enterprises Me:CCG Official Netrep
I have generally found Ichabod to be right, though he did make a few mistakes. Most were eventually caught, some were not.

At first I agreed with Ichabod:
MEWH - Marshalling Points wrote:All other (non-stage) marshalling point cards are only worth 1 marshalling point each to a Fallen-wizard (regardless of their printed value).
These MPs can not be modified by a hero or minion resource event.
Since That Ain't No Secret is a marshalling point card then it is worth 1 MP to a FW. And because it is a minion event then the moment it comes into play it is worth the 1 MP since it's own effect cannot modify its MPs.

Update/Revision: But I looked at this more, and reading the White Hand rules together, in context, I think gives a different perspective and better understanding.
MEWH MP.PNG
MEWH MP.PNG (156.64 KiB) Viewed 1831 times
Previously I was focused on "only worth 1 MP" when actually "these MPs" is important as well. "These MPs" can only be referring to the numerical value of the marshalling points when reading this section of the MEWH rules as a whole. This statement does not refer to whether the player receives those points or not. That is, the MEWH rules only prevent the value of the marshalling points from being modified by a hero or minion event. The would prevent an event from setting the MP value to 0. But these types of events do not set the value to 0, they do something different -- they prevent the player from receiving those marshalling points in their marshalling point total. Such effects of hero or resource events are not canceled by the MEWH rules.

For a Fallen-wizard, no Marshaling points are received until That Ain't No Secret is stored at a wizardhaven during the character's organization phase.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 12:22 am That Ain't No Secret is both a "minion resource event" and a "marshalling point card."
CDavis7M wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 12:22 am Since That Ain't No Secret is a minion resource event, it's effect "No Marshaling points are received until this card is stored at a Darkhaven during the character's organization phase" can not modify the 1MP that That Ain't No Secret is worth. It is worth 1MP whether it is stored or not.
Now I think about Rumours of Rings, Whispers of Rings.
Maybe you have found a recipe for 8 ring special items giving MPs since placed off tho the side.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 8:16 am Now I think about Rumours of Rings, Whispers of Rings.
Maybe you have found a recipe for 8 ring special items giving MPs since placed off tho the side.
No. You get 31MP because the MP for cards placed off to the side are not affected by MEWH's only 1MP rule since cards placed "off to the side" "absolutely cannot be affected by the game" per MEDM. 8)

Or maybe the ring special items are worth 0MP since they are doubly covered the card effect and by the MEDM rules (not an event) which state "unless stated otherwise on its host card, a card placed off to the side will give its marshalling points to its owner" and both Rumours and Whispers state otherwise. More a description than a rule in MEDM, but reiterated after MEWH.
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