Council of Elrond

Hi, I have another question.

Ive read in Digest #67 :
digest 67
*** Non-haven sites converted to wizardhavens during the game continue
to follow the rules on joining and splitting companies at non-haven sites.


If this happens:

1st: In Org phase, 2 characters in a Converted Wizard heaven splits in 1 Staying company and 1 moving company.

2nd: During Mov phase, the moving company has to return to site of origin by a hazard effect.


I understand by Digest #67 that you have to apply rules on joining and splitting companies at non-heaven sites ...



What will happen ?
You will have to join the companies like the same at non-heaves ?
Not ?


At worlds we played you havent to join, but I cant see any overruled and I cant undestand why havent to join ....

help !

I'm courious of justification of that ruling.

CRF, Turn Sequence, Movement/Hazard Phase, General wrote:Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all
movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts. Companies at the same Haven/
Darkhaven site may join at this time.

The White Hand, Overview, Wizardhavens wrote:When the rules and non-site cards refer to Havens and Darkhavens, they apply instead
to your Wizardhavens. The special effects of METW Havens (i.e., healing, bringing
characters into play, etc.) do apply to your companies at your Wizardhavens. These
same effects do not apply to your companies at MELE Darkhavens and METW
Havens.

Me, too.

What I think he is trying ti say, as that they have to return to the same site card, as you can have only 1 of each site avilable to play. You cannot have 2 separate companies at one site, acoording to the rules.

Yep, basically each company requires their own site card. The only (momentary) exceptions that come to mind are when you split a company during the organization phase and when a company is moving to a site already in play.

Ringbearer wrote:You cannot have 2 separate companies at one site, acoording to the rules.

According to the which rule?

Aha, so what is the official answer ... Have I to join the companies (cant do anything), or its possible to have two different companies in the same converted FW heaven site card at site phase ?

Its important, because at Worlds we played havent to join as the judge said, but no ones undestand why

Thanks

miguel wrote:Yep, basically each company requires their own site card. The only (momentary) exceptions that come to mind are when you split a company during the organization phase and when a company is moving to a site already in play.

MELE Rules, Page 17 wrote:Clarification: During the organization phase, one Darkhaven card may be used to represent the location of two or more companies, so long as the distinction between companies is clearly presented spatially. However, we suggest the use of multiple Darkhaven cards for clarity.

The rules specifically allow for one Darkhaven card to represent multiple companies . . . I guess this only applies to the organization phase, then?

CRF, Movement wrote:Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts. Companies at the same Haven/Darkhaven site may join at this time.

I can find no rule that states that a company forced to return to a haven site of origin must join with a company already there. Using one site card to represent two companies was valid in the organization phase. By rule, companies at the same haven site at the start of the site phase do not have to join, nor do they have to have their location represented by multiple site cards.

So I can have two companies at a site, and one plays something playable there.... Like lobelia ally at a chambered bag end... can the other company who moved there this turn play hobbit faction? Or does the site tap? THis is beocming a very grey area if you allow different companies at one site.

Ringbearer wrote:So I can have two companies at a site, and one plays something playable there.... Like lobelia ally at a chambered bag end... can the other company who moved there this turn play hobbit faction? Or does the site tap? THis is beocming a very grey area if you allow different companies at one site.

CRF, Turn Sequence, Site Phase, general wrote:There is no one resource card per site phase rule. However, the tapping of the site
usually limits you to one card per site phase.

Site card's state (tapped/untapped) is independent from number of companies at that site (i.e. site is not tapped for one company and untapped for other). Is not it obvious?

A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site.

Unless the site is untapped, you cannot play allies, factions, or items. There isn't any particular gray area here.

Especially since haven cards taken from the location deck do not mirror the tapped status of the same card already in play.

If you somehow manage to have Bag End be both untapped and tapped in the same site phase, go ahead.

Ok, here's the deal. You assign site cards to companies, not companies to site cards. This is kind of similar to how agents use sites, but companies can share a site card in some special cases.

Example: I have company A at Lorien and company B at Rivendell . I move company A to Rivendell by stating they are moving to a site already in play. WRONG

A lot of people play like this, and mostly it's fine because it doesn't really matter. But in reality what I should do, is get another Rivendell for company A from my location deck. That's what the multiple havens are for.

CRF wrote:Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts. Companies at the same Haven/Darkhaven site may join at this time.

Regarding the quote above: If you get two companies at the same site without being able to assign site cards for each company, the companies need to combine. You have multiple havens, so combining becomes optional.

The reason for the CoE digest ruling in question is that you don't have multiples of the converted wizardhaven available, and therefore it must be assigned to a single company. And it doesn't matter how the different companies ended up at the site, they need to combine.

@Hanksole: Official answer would be that you have to join the companies and they can't do anything. During games the rules always bend a little, because no one can remember everything at the drop of a hat. If this happens in the future, you can always refer to the ruling (CoE digest rulings are always official and valid unless overturned in a later digest).

@Took: That quote from LE you posted indeed applies only during the organization phase.



kthanxby

Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts. Companies at the same Haven/Darkhaven site may join at this time.

I does not say about haven/non-haven site cards, but about haven/non-haven sites.
Otherwise two companies at fallen The White Towers changed to R&L (by Nature's Revange) could not join if players uses two fallen The White Towers site cards. According to the interpretation of quoted rule that refers to the site cards (and not to the sites) two fallen The White Towers site cards would be treated as two haven sites.

P.S.

Clarification: During the organization phase, one Darkhaven card may be used to represent the location of two or more companies, so long as the distinction between companies is clearly presented spatially. However, we suggest the use of multiple Darkhaven cards for clarity.

There is some logic that if in certain place something is allowed then this means that preasumably elsewhere it is forbidden.
E.g. if We have Come To Kill contains phrase "This does not count against the one character per turn limit" then this means such limit exists (and ACM does count against it).
According to such logic a companies at the same Darkhaven would be forced to join outside of org. phase, if player does not provide second copy of the Darkhaven. Because clarification from Page 17 says about organization phase.
I fear such logic does not work well in this game. It is only post scriptum, but i know more of similar examples.

I realize that my previous post was unclear.

To make the question short and clear:

Justification behind:

digest 67 wrote:*** Non-haven sites converted to wizardhavens during the game continue
to follow the rules on joining and splitting companies at non-haven sites.

is statement:
"Multiple companies at a haven site must use one site card per company"

Right?

Next - justification behind this statement is:

MELE,p17 wrote:Clarification: During the organization phase, one Darkhaven card may be used to represent the location of two or more companies, so long as the distinction between companies is clearly presented spatially. However, we suggest the use of multiple Darkhaven cards for clarity.

that would mean that outside org. phase a one site card for each company at the site is strictly required.

Right?

@Konrad: Yes on both accounts.