Council of Elrond

Using Double Dealing on a Minion Ruins & Lairs, I play Rebuild the Town, changing it to a Border-Hold.

MEWH Rules, Movement wrote:A Fallen-wizard's non-overt companies must use hero site for site that are not a Ruins & Lairs.

Assuming I have a non-overt company, I must now replace the site with the Hero version, placing the minion version in either the location deck or discard pile.

Rebuild The Town wrote:Discard Rebuild The Town when the site is discarded or returned to the location deck.

Double Dealing wrote:Discard when this site is discarded or returned to the location deck.

Therefore, both these cards would be discarded, since the site has been either returned to the location deck or discarded, correct?

Similarly, Hold Rebuilt on a Minion Ruins & Lairs would force me to replace it with the Hero version, discarding Hold Rebuilt, correct?

White Hand Rules Insert:
The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g., Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type.

Its an exchange of sites, not a discard or return.

Then where do you put the site when it is exchanged?

in discard when tapped and in site deck when untapped (I believe)

There is no corresponding site to exchange for (by type), so I think you get to keep your utopia.

This is kinda related to:

CoE Digest #118 wrote:(7) Ben Sorenson asked: "Wondrous Maps says: "This card is used as a site card, Ruins & Lairs [R]." 1. This means that Rebuild the Town can be played on it, correct? 2. In that case, since it becomes a Border-Hold, how would Heart Grown Cold affect it? Or would it?"

After much deliberation, we rule as follows: there are 4 questions here: (a) How to deal with normal hero sites that have hero permanent events on them; (b) How to deal with special sites created by hero resources; (c) How, in particular, to deal with special sites created by hero resources which are also targets of hero resources (e.g., Wondrous Maps with Rebuild the Town); and (d) How to deal with hero sites that have been transformed into wizard-havens.

With (a) the hero permanent events are discarded, since they will otherwise be targeting a minion site. With (b) and (c), however, nothing happens. There is no site to exchange for, and so there is no exchange possible. Finally, with (d), such sites are not affected by Heart Grown Cold.

Does site type have to match, then? Amon Hen is still Amon Hen regardless of its site type, isn't it?

I think that main (if not only) source of confusion is inprecise wording:

"A Fallen-wizard's non-overt companies must use hero site for site that are not a Ruins & Lairs."

should be:

"A Fallen-wizard's non-overt companies must use hero site cards for site that are not normally a Ruins & Lairs."

While some non-site cards may be in certain situations treated as sites, certain operations like returning to the Location Deck, or replacing with opposite version may be performed only on site cards.

Heart Grown Cold and Plotting Ruin are precise in that question, they says about site cards. Cast From The Order is not (says about sites).

For that reasons I think also that:
Q:"(d) How to deal with hero sites that have been transformed into wizard-havens. "
A:"such sites are not affected by Heart Grown Cold."

is not correct. Hero site card used in wizard-haven stack should be repleaced too.

Bandobras Took wrote:Does site type have to match, then? Amon Hen is still Amon Hen regardless of its site type, isn't it?

If you have minion Amon Hen that you've Rebuilt into a border-hold, and something says you need to use hero sites for border-holds... Then you look for a hero version of Amon Hen (border-hold), but it's not there, so you can't exchange the site to the other alignment IMO.

Interesting. If somebody runs into domse on GCCG before I do, make sure to tell him. (It was a conversation with him that led me to ask the question in the first place. )

@ Konrad:

Such sites are not affected by Heart Grown Cold because Heart Grown Cold does not apply to Wizardhavens at all. The question of site cards doesn't enter into it. Or, rather, you have to use the minion site cards, but only for certain site types.

Happily, though, the distinction between site cards and sites makes everything clear on this question.

Bandobras Took wrote: @ Konrad:

Such sites are not affected by Heart Grown Cold because Heart Grown Cold does not apply to Wizardhavens at all. The question of site cards doesn't enter into it. Or, rather, you have to use the minion site cards, but only for certain site types.

Happily, though, the distinction between site cards and sites makes everything clear on this question.

Point I was making:
Heart Grown Cold does not apply to the sites at all.
It applies to the site card.
Otherwise Moria (hero site card) + Nature's Revange + Rebuild The Town would be affected by HGC. And it leads to situation where Moria is repleaced with minion version and Rebuild The Town targets minion site.

Konrad Klar wrote: Point I was making:
Heart Grown Cold does not apply to the sites at all.
It applies to the site card.
Otherwise Moria (hero site card) + Nature's Revange + Rebuild The Town would be affected by HGC. And it leads to situation where Moria is repleaced with minion version and Rebuild The Town targets minion site.

Only part of the text applies to site cards. But the part which determines which sites are affected does not deal with site cards at all. Hero Havens, Free-Holds, and Border-Holds are all specified simply by site type, not as site cards. You must use Minion site cards to replace the affected sites, but you use site type to determine if a card is affected.

As for the example: Moria would be replaced because Heart Grown cold affects site types and replaces them with site Cards, as I understand it. In this case Rebuild would be discarded because the site it targeted was returned to the location deck or discarded (whether it was exchanged for another or remains in play is irrelevant.)

Default rule of "must use hero sites for site that are not ruins & lairs" deals strictly with site types -- which makes Miguel's interpretation make sense for this instance, where site that has become a minion border-hold must be replaced by a hero border-hold -- if there is no valid hero border-hold, replacement does not occur.

I understand you (I think).

However I think that idea behind:
"A Fallen-wizard's non-overt companies must use hero site for site that are not a Ruins & Lairs."
is
"A Fallen-wizard's non-overt companies must use hero site cards for site that are not a [normally] Ruins & Lairs.

Idea behind:
"must use minion site cards for hero Havens" (HGC)
is
"must use minion site cards for sites that are normally hero Havens".

Wording is... as is.

Please note that there is no generic site type like "hero haven". Such type is not referred by any hazard/resource other than three mentioned WH cards that forces FW to use other versions of site (cards). It is only type that hero versions of Lorien/Rivendell/Grey Havens/Edhellond have.