Testing For The One At Mount Doom -- no victory?

[Bandobras Took]

Entities associated with a company include the characters, allies, and items in the company, and any events played on the company or on another entity in the company. The new site and site of origin are not entities associated with the company.

Allies can move. Why not items?

One example of ally card where it is worded in such way, please.
Companies may move, characters may move. Allies and items are moving only if its controlling characters moves.

I believe that is the point I was trying to make. People are trying to claim that it's impossible to move items and therefore the rule cannot mean what it says, but items obviously move when their controlling character does -- otherwise they would stay at the site in question.

And since the rules describe no other way for a Ringwraith player to win a One Ring victory than by moving the One Ring to Barad-Dur, it is clear that:

1) Items can be moved in the game -- otherwise it is impossible for a Ringwraith player to win a One Ring victory;
2) Moving the One Ring is listed as one of the requirements for winning by the Play of Certain Cards in the METW rulebook;
3) Such cards are indicated in the game by the simple phrase "win the game" -- without such a phrase, a card may not be used to win the game; and
4) My break time just ran out at work.

[Bruce]

If moving the One Ring to mt. Doom would be taken as a necessary condition to win by dunk, then you couldn't even influence the One Ring away from your opponent at mt. Doom and dunk it immediately thereafter: you should move away from mt. Doom and then come back, a detour which would be pretty illogical by the standpoint of a company of heroes who already went through countless dangers to get to mt. Doom and, one step away from success, decides to take a trip 'round Mordor before accomplishing the mission they're on...

IMO this literal interpretation of the METW rulesbook doesn't make much sense: you can simply read that sentence as "if you get the One Ring to mt. Doom..." and so on. When you're on a struggle to save the world, it doesn't really matter how you fulfill the mission, you just mind for the successfulness of the mission.

[Bandobras Took]

Unfortunately, this is a rather long quotation, but it's somewhat necessary.

1 · The Victory Conditions

The game ends when one of the following occurs during play:

1. If your Wizard is "eliminated" (i.e., through combat or corruption)-your opponent wins.
2. If you move The One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards-The One Ring is destroyed and you win.
3. Otherwise, the winner is decided at the Free Council. This council is called when one of the following occurs:

* When each play deck has been exhausted once, the council starts at the end of the current turn.
* After you have exhausted your play deck for the first time, you may choose to call the council at the end of any of your turns. The council starts at the end of your opponent's next turn (i.e., your opponent gets one last turn).
* You may choose to call the council at the end of your turn if you have accumulated at least 20 marshalling points. The council starts at the end of your opponent's next turn (i.e., your opponent gets one last turn).


Note: If one or both players only has access to a starter deck (76 cards), this requirement of 20 marshalling points should be lowered to 18.
THE FREE COUNCIL

Just before the Free Council, each character must make a corruption check. The player who took the last turn makes corruption checks for his characters first.
At the Free Council, the leaders of the Free Peoples decide which Wizard's advice is best to follow. This is based upon a comparison of the resources each of the Wizards has marshalled.


Clarification: Characters do not automatically untap when the Free Council is called. A character may only untap during his own untap phase.
Clarification: A character that fails his corruption check prior to the Free Council is no longer in play. That character and any non-follower cards he controls are not available at the Free Council-thus, they do not count towards the marshalling point totals.
A player may play resource cards that can affect his characters' corruption checks made prior to the Free Council. Hazard cards may not be played.
After all characters have made their corruption checks, the game ends if one Wizard has failed his corruption check (the other player wins). If both Wizards fail their corruption checks, no one wins-both players lose (if you have to, roll dice and the high roller is the winner).

The winner of the game is the player that has gathered the most marshalling points from:

* Control of resources: characters, allies, items, and factions.
* Destruction of creatures and/or evil forces.
* Carrying out the instructions on resource cards.
* By avoiding negative points which accrue when certain characters that you control are eliminated (e.g., Aragorn II, Galadriel, Elrond, Círdan, Frodo, and Bilbo).

Marshalling points are printed on the top left corner of the cards that award them.


Note: You may find it useful to use pencil and paper or extra dice to keep a running total of marshalling points.
Clarification: If both players have the same number of marshalling points at the Free Council, the game ends in a tie-both players win (if you have to, roll dice and the high roller is the winner).

Example: (CPs = Corruption Points, MPs = Marshalling Points) Our two players Jessica and Jason have been playing for awhile and Jessica exhausts her play deck during her turn. Since she has 15 MPs and Jason only has 14, she decides to call the Free Council. Each player has one company in Lórien:

Jessica Controls:CPs - MPs
Men of Lebennin (faction) 0 - 2
Dreams of Lore (information) 0 - 2
Pallando (controls:) Total CPs: 2 - 0
Sword of Gondolin (item) 2 - 2
Gwaihir (ally) 0 - 2
Celeborn 0 - 2
Gildor Inglorion (controls:) Total CPs: 1 - 1
Healing Herbs (item) 1 - 0
Legolas (controls:) Total CPs: 2 - 2
Elfstone (item) 1 - 0
Dagger of Westernesse (item) 1 - 0
Elrohir 0 - 1
Elladan Total CPs: 0 - 1

Jason Controls: CPs - MPs
Radagast (controls:) Total CPs: 0 - 0
Beorn (controls:) 0 - 2
Quickbeam (ally) 0 - 2
Théoden (controls:) Total CPs: 4 - 2
Sword of Gondolin (item) 2 - 2
Great Shield of Rohan (item) 2 - 2
Faramir (controls:) Total CPs: 2 - 2
Dagger of Westernesse (item) 1 - 0
Healing Herbs (item) 1 - 0
Imrahil (controls:) Total CPs: 0 - 2

Since Jessica called the council, Jason gets one final turn before the council starts. Jason brings Éomer into play for one more MP, and then moves his company to Lake-town. After facing the hazards Jessica plays, he successfully plays the Men of Northern Rhovanion faction for two more MPs. Jason now has 17 MPs and will win the game if he does not lose any MPs due to characters failing corruption checks.
In this example, any character with 2 or more CPs could fail his corruption check (see pages 35-36). If Pallando fails his corruption check, the game ends immediately and Jason wins. If Legolas fails his corruption check, Jessica loses 2 of her MPs. If Théoden fails his corruption check, Jason loses 6 of his MPs. If Faramir fails his corruption check, Jason loses 2 of his MPs.

What people are essentially saying is that ICE simply failed to be precise in this section on how to win (the only such section in the book) in spite of providing detailed explanations and clarifications, and further that they were imprecise and unclear on the middle one of three points.

I'm afraid that won't wash.

This isn't just a general idea of how to win, this is specific and detailed. It is the only such section in the starter rules. The Standard rules only give further complications to the Free Council -- if there were any more to be said on the subject of winning with the One Ring, they would have put it there.

We can't rewrite the rules to anything we want them to be simply because we don't like what they say. This rule occurs in the middle of a long, clear, and detailed section on how to win.

Whether it produces silly situations is irrelevant. There are any number of silly situations already allowed by the rules. (I think I would be right in naming such things as responding to passive conditions -- the number of silly things you can do with that is phenomenal). The rule is there. It's clearly worded. It doesn't make winning impossible.

If I accept that they were unclear on the One Ring rule, can I also assume they were unclear on the first, and that a wizard need merely be wounded in order to lose the game? Nobody's even going to pretend that, yet that is how people are suggesting the second rule be read. Maybe the rules on calling the council are just supposed to give the general idea, but I can call the council no matter my MPs or the state of my deck? Again, nobody thinks they were imprecise there. What is it about rule #2 that warrants special interpretation?

[Konrad Klar]

1 · The Victory Conditions

The game ends when one of the following occurs during play:

1. If your Wizard is "eliminated" (i.e., through combat or corruption)-your opponent wins.
2. If you move The One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards-The One Ring is destroyed and you win.
3. Otherwise, the winner is decided at the Free Council. This council is called when one of the following occurs:

This part is that what I call "a brief explanation".
Rest is detailed procedure.

This part, for example, does not explain what exactly means "elimination through corruption".
Other chapters of METW says more precisely when character is discarded and when is eliminated (with special notes about Wizards).

Whether it produces silly situations is irrelevant. There are any number of silly situations already allowed by the rules. (I think I would be right in naming such things as responding to passive conditions -- the number of silly things you can do with that is phenomenal).

In my opinion rules are not constructed against the reason, sense or realism. If something "silly" happens in game it is a result of fact that simulation is not a value in this game and rules have always priority.

BTW. There is no thing like "responding to passive conditions". There is only responding to the action. Action sometimes may be caused by passive condition.

[Bandobras Took]

Again, though, can I just assume that "eliminated" in this instance doesn't mean eliminated -- that it means something else?

Neither then can you say that moving the One Ring to Mount Doom and playing certain cards means something else. It means exactly what it says.

Good point about responding to Passive Conditions.

[Konrad Klar]

Again, though, can I just assume that "eliminated" in this instance doesn't mean eliminated -- that it means something else?

I'm still speaking about distinction between "a brief explanation" and "detailed procedure".
After your "somewhat necessary" big quote I was under impression that in your opinion both types are mixed in the same chapter.
My previous post was mainly reply for that supposition.

In other words:

If you have a strict definition of "move" that additionaly may be applied to the companies, characters, and items and now some text contains the word "move", than it may be interpreted as reference to this definition.

If you don't have a such definition and some text says "move", this "move" does not translate to any concrete "detailed procedure" in game.

Fact that discuted rule is worded "If you move the One Ring to Mount Doom" and not "If one of your companies move the One Ring to Mount Doom" is not issue in your opinion.
Even if you cannot move items directly, you can move its controlling companies. As result items will be moved.
And it is enough to satisfy this victory condition.

But if The One Ring would be delivered to Mount Doom in some other way (influence, stealing in CvCC, as result of test) than "nay". It is not "movement" in strict meaning of this word (in MeCCG), because character was not moving to Mount Doom while bearing of The One Ring.

I don't see your interpretation as monolitic and consistent. I see it as compromise between "strong enough" move and "weak enough" you.

[Bandobras Took]

There isn't a strong "move" and a weak "you" here.

If you start at a Ruins & Lairs site

I personally don't start at a Ruins & Lairs unless the game's being held in an exotic location -- though I admit some venues could qualify.

You may not make an influence attempt on an item with a permanent event on it.

I don't make the influence attempt; my character does.

Arguing about "you" is practically desperation incarnate. ICE freely used "you" to refer to any part of the game a player has control over. They did it in the first rulebook and continued through all the others.

"Move" also isn't strong or weak. It's simply the way things are referred to.

One of your companies that begins its turn at the surface site of an Under-deeps site can move normally or it can [/b]move[/b] to its adjacent Under-deeps site (i.e., the company moves to an Under-deeps site from its surface site). One of your companies that begins its turn at an Under-deeps site may only move to one of the adjacent sites listed on the Under-deeps site card.

How do you interpret "move" in these rules? Is it the same thing as being at the site and staying there? No.

If a company does not move, it still has a movement/hazard phase. No cards are drawn based on the company's movement, and the only hazards that can be played on the company are events and creatures that can be keyed to the company's site.

Being at a site and moving to a site are two completely different things.

If you move The One Ring to Barad-dûr - Sauron is reunited with the One Ring and you win.

It's the exact same word and means the exact same thing -- going from one site to another.

I mean, if you have to argue that "you move" has to be more explicitly defined or else it means "you don't move," it's pretty clear we're dealing with a solidly worded rule.

I mean, how far do we have to question the definitions here? For example:

A company commits to moving by playing a new site card (face down) during its organization phase.

Apparently, companies can never move at all, because they have to play the new site card -- you can't do it.

Or else "you move" simply means what any rational person would think it means -- as a player, you manipulate the cards in such a way that a given card currently located at one site goes to a different site.

Replacing the site card is considered movement, without a movement/hazard phase.

This is the official ICE definition of movement in the CRF entry for Great Road. In order for "move" to apply, a site card has to be replaced at some point.

There is a detailed procedure for moving the One Ring to Mount Doom -- see the rules sections on Card Combinations (which tells you how to get the One Ring into play) and Movement (which tells you how to move to a site).

I'm not saying that "brief explanation" and "detailed procedure" are mixed in the same chapter.

I'm saying that rule #2 is the detailed procedure, because having to define words like "you" and "move" assumes a level of illiteracy that most Tolkien fans are unlikely to have.

I hate to put it that bluntly, but the rule's clear and unequivocal.

On the other hand, it might be interesting to have "you move X" mean exactly the same thing as "X stays at the site without moving."

My interpretation is perfectly consistent. If you have moved the One Ring to Mount Doom, you may play cards which indicate you win. Otherwise, you may not.

[Konrad Klar]

It is a reason for which I'm using "strong enough" and "weak enough" in quotation marks.
You can be more strict on first and less strict on second or vice versa.
If fact that ICE was using "you" and "your company" interchangeably in some places is enough argument, then it is point for you. You can ignore this distinction for purpose of your interpretation and you can feel consistent.

For me the same things have other meaning - that some rule is worded in poor way and therefore I don't have a strong reason for treating it literally.
Just because I cannot demand from anyone treating of one part of this rule strictly and other not.

[Leon]

I agree with Brandobras and I find this discussion quite amazing and at times ridiculous.

You can either follow this rule or ignore it, as has been done for years.

What I cannot understand is the discussion about the words. The rule as it is written is perfectly clear.

Please continue with a discussion about what If, Mount Doom and the One Ring could mean. Then you can have a whole page of rule discussion about every word in the first sentence.

Good luck

[Bandobras Took]

I reiterate as well -- I am treating "you" and "move" the exact same way -- using them as they are used in other instances in the rules. I am not interpreting one broadly and the other narrowly -- I am interpreting them both as they are used in the rules.

[Bandobras Took]

Please continue with a discussion about what If, Mount Doom and the One Ring could mean. Then you can have a whole page of rule discussion about every word in the first sentence.

Good luck

I think we could squeeze a page and a half out of "to."

[sly southerner]

2. If you move The One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards-The One Ring is destroyed and you win.

What if the cards aren't certain? If there is any doubt then you dont win? Doesnt Cracks of Doom require a die roll? Thats not certain....

Also clearly if you win your opponent has every right to grab The One Ring and tear it to pieces!

Seriously though I still think Bandobras has a very good point.

[Bandobras Took]

2. If you move The One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards-The One Ring is destroyed and you win.

What if the cards aren't certain? If there is any doubt then you dont win? Doesnt Cracks of Doom require a die roll? Thats not certain....

Also clearly if you win your opponent has every right to grab The One Ring and tear it to pieces!

Seriously though I still think Bandobras has a very good point.

I like that -- every time you win One Ring victory you must burn the card involved.

The thread seems to have gone to humor now, but I still think the rule itself should be taken seriously.

[Olorin]

Only playable if The One Ring is at Mount Doom during the site phase. Its bearer makes a corruption check modified by -4. If successful, The One Ring is destroyed and its bearer's player wins.

Can I play this if my opponent is at Mount Doom and has too much corruption to pass the check during my site phase? (i.e. Waiting to punt a lure during his next org. phase before trying it himself with "A Friend or Three".)

On an unrelated topic, was the text about the bearer and the One Ring being discarded "errata'ed" out because it is unneccessary due to the normal result of failed corruption, or because you are not supposed to discard the ring or the character?

On a topic actually related to this thread, what part of the above card is even remotely abiguous concerning the idea that if I play this card with The One Ring, at Mount Doom, and roll a big enough number, I win? Dunking was around in ICE's day, so besides witty banter about passive conditions and the efficacy of sprinting in circular patters, what are we even arguing? Exactly zero circumstantial evidence of any kind supports the idea that the intent of the phrase in the rulebook was intended to mean that the act of "moving" The One Ring to Mount Doom is a requirement for Sauron to get that which is coming to him. Besides that, it has to be "moved" there, anyway. It can't be found there, and it can't be created there.

I think what I'm getting at is that I can't ultimately refute your legalistic argument, but it fails under a landslide of practical opposition. It just doesn't wash, and no one will change the way they play because of it.

For the record, I think thematically, it would be a nifty requirement. I'm not even opposed to it as a rule, but certainly have difficulty claiming it is a rule now. A simple ban on testing gold rings at Mount Doom makes more sense to me, because who the hell would have gone there not knowing what the ring in his or her pocket was for?

My 2 cents,
Olorin

[Bandobras Took]

Your opponent's resources may be the active conditions for your resources, but may not be the targets for your resources.

Cracks of Doom targets the bearer of the One Ring. You may not use your opponent's bearer of the One Ring.

On a topic actually related to this thread, 1) what part of the above card is even remotely abiguous concerning the idea that if I play this card with The One Ring, at Mount Doom, and roll a big enough number, I win? 2) Dunking was around in ICE's day, so besides witty banter about passive conditions and the efficacy of sprinting in circular patters, what are we even arguing? 3) Exactly zero circumstantial evidence of any kind supports the idea that the intent of the phrase in the rulebook was intended to mean that the act of "moving" The One Ring to Mount Doom is a requirement for Sauron to get that which is coming to him. 4) Besides that, it has to be "moved" there, anyway. It can't be found there, and it can't be created there.

1) Absolutely nothing is ambiguous. Since you can win by playing that card, the rule about moving the One Ring to Mount Doom applies.

2) No creature minimum was also around in ICE's day and was later changed. ICE even let you play Strike Assignment cards/strike reducing cards on automatic attacks despite their own rules to the contrary. "ICE let me do it" is no argument whatsoever. "ICE changed the rule" is an argument that would have merit.

3) There's one big piece of circumstantial evidence -- the fact that the rule says you have to move the One Ring to Mount Doom and play a card which will let you win the game in order to win. The idea that the card overrides the rule by the same phrase that makes the rule apply to it at all is just silly.

3b) For example, Aiglos says

Playable at any Under-deep Dark-hold or Shadow-hold.

but doesn't say anything about it being in the site phase or having to tap the site or the character. I am not therefore free to assume I don't have to do these things because they're mentioned in the rules but not on the card. It is sufficient that it is an item, and the rules on item play apply.

In the same way, cards which permit you to win a One Ring victory must follow the rules laid down for cards which permit you to win a One Ring victory. If a given card directly said "You need not have moved the One Ring to Mount Doom" then it would override the rule for Hero One Ring victory conditions. But not until then.

4) Lucky Search will let you find a Gold Ring Item at Mount Doom and test it there. So you CAN find it there.