In the heart of his Realm

[Wacho]

Jambo, do you mean the condition of having less than 15 (20) cards in your deck isn't a passive condition? If so I agree with you that isn't a passive condition, but if you mean the action of the card which cancels any effect that allows you to look through your deck that seems clear to me that it is an effect triggered by a passive condition. There isn't any way to get around this canceling by playing a Smoke Rings in response either. That just starts a new chain in which the Smoke Rings would get cancelled again.

[Bandobras Took]

That depends on how you define the word "automatically" in Flotsam. Normally, actions created by passive conditions become the first declared action in the chain of effects immediately following the chain in which it was triggered. Apparently "automatically" would have to override this rule and allow for the canceling of an effect that has not yet resolved, since the canceling action is declared after the searching action and resolves before it. What a mess.

[Konrad Klar]

So what is (from practical point of view) difference between "automatically canceled" considered as action caused by passive condition and "automatically canceled" considered as other type of action?
Is there a real need of stretching of Passive Condition rules, that in current state does not take into account such cases as action declared in the same COE in which passive condition has occured?

[Bandobras Took]

This came up again in a game I just saw. A player played Wizard's Tests after In the Heart of His Realm had already resolved.

No character at a site in a Dark-domain [d] or Gorgoroth, or moving with a Dark-domain [d] or Gorgoroth in his site path, can use spells, light enchantments, or rituals.

It was argued that this is a Passive Condition that could be responded to. Keeping in mind that the card had already resolved, what action was the Passive Condition creating?

[Sauron]

This came up again in a game I just saw. A player played Wizard's Tests after In the Heart of His Realm had already resolved.

No character at a site in a Dark-domain [d] or Gorgoroth, or moving with a Dark-domain [d] or Gorgoroth in his site path, can use spells, light enchantments, or rituals.

It was argued that this is a Passive Condition that could be responded to. Keeping in mind that the card had already resolved, what action was the Passive Condition creating?

If X happens then apply Y is more or less how passive conditions work.

If someone moves thru [d] or Gorgoroth then apply Y, in response you may do stuff.

If you were already at the site and didn't move and it was already in play you're more or less fucked.

[Bandobras Took]

That's the question -- you can respond to "No character moving through a dark domain can use spells" only if it is an action. Is that an action?

[Sauron]

That's the question -- you can respond to "No character moving through a dark domain can use spells" only if it is an action. Is that an action?

I don't think I understand your question.

Scenario A - ItHoHR (In play) (Passive Condition Set)
Company Moves through DD or Gorgoth - In response to triggering the passive condition you may respond with anything before the rest of the passive condition kicks in.

Scenario B - ItHoHR (In play)
Company is squatting in DD or Gorgoroth. You may not play said cards. There is nothing to respond to at this point.

[Bandobras Took]

In order for there to be any Passive Condition at all, and action has to trigger. The definition of a Passive Condition is that it "causes an action to occur as stated on a card already in play."

I don't think "character moving or at a dark domain may not play spells" is an action.

If there's no action, there's no Passive Condition and nothing to respond to because nothing is actually declared at the time.

[Jambo]

I believe B_took is correct, but then I've been arguing this card's case for many a moon.

"No character moving through a dark domain can use spells" is to me an effect, not an action (an action will typically have a conclusion). Once this card has resolved, anyone with DD or Dh in their site path is immediately fooked until they're out of said affected areas.

The same can be said about Flotsam and Jetsam. It's not a passive condition that continues to check the size of the play deck. As soon as the play deck reaches the trigger point, the effect is in effect. Otherwise, one could always respond to F&J checking the size of the play deck and the card would never work.

[Sauron]

I believe B_took is correct, but then I've been arguing this card's case for many a moon.

"No character moving through a dark domain can use spells" is to me an effect, not an action (an action will typically have a conclusion). Once this card has resolved, anyone with DD or Dh in their site path is immediately fooked until they're out of said affected areas.

The action is to remove the use of spells.

The same can be said about Flotsam and Jetsam. It's not a passive condition that continues to check the size of the play deck. As soon as the play deck reaches the trigger point, the effect is in effect. Otherwise, one could always respond to F&J checking the size of the play deck and the card would never work.

You could respond to the 1st time. The 1st triggering doesn't stop ceasing to function until the conditions are met. So yeah you could respond to the 2nd or 3rd triggering but you'd still be under the effects of the 1st triggering.

[Bandobras Took]

The action is to remove the use of spells.

I don't contest that this is an action as such, but it resolved along with card play. Once In the Heart successfully resolves, any company moving in etc. can't use spells.

I can't respond to the fact that moving through three Free Domains does not allow my opponent to play Were-Worms on me, even though by moving there I've disallowed what was previously a possibility. Likewise I can't respond to the fact that while In the Heart is in play, companies moving through Dark Domains can't use spells where they previously could. The time to respond is when the action to set up the effect is declared.

[Sauron]

I can't respond to the fact that moving through three Free Domains does not allow my opponent to play Were-Worms on me, even though by moving there I've disallowed what was previously a possibility.

You are free to respond 1st on your turn. You are always free to play things on your turn. I don't see how moving thru X, X, X does not allow my opponent to play Were-worms on me have anything to do with this context. As you could always play and respond to your movement on your turn.

Likewise I can't respond to the fact that while In the Heart is in play, companies moving through Dark Domains can't use spells where they previously could. The time to respond is when the action to set up the effect is declared.

Likewise you can respond to movement.

So under your scenario if snowstorm was in play, you couldn't respond to moving through Wilderness and being sent back? Of course this is silly.

So if Mordor in Arms was in play and I moved thru the associated sites, I would not be able to respond?

Just because something is in play doesn't mean you don't get to respond if it's something you can respond to. You can obviously respond to movement thru X, Y, Z.

[Bandobras Took]

Of course you can respond to movement. But you can't respond to the effects of your movement. If moving through X does not allow something to be played, that's not an action.

So under your scenario if snowstorm was in play, you couldn't respond to moving through Wilderness and being sent back? Of course this is silly.

By contrast, sending someone back to their site of origin is an action. They were moving somewhere; now they are moving to a completely different place. Since there is an action, this is a passive condition and the action of sending the company back to the site becomes the first declared action in a chain of effects immediately following the resolution of the current chain.

But you can't respond to moving through the Wilderness at this point -- the only time a movement action was declared and resolved was when the new site was flipped over. The company is moving for the duration of the m/h phase, but that doesn't mean that they're declaring infinite movement for people to respond to. Otherwise you could never attack a moving company with creatures.

So if Mordor in Arms was in play and I moved thru the associated sites, I would not be able to respond?

Likewise, an attack is an action, so that's a Passive condition -- the attack becomes the first declared action in the chain of effects immediately following the current chain. But you can't respond to (on the same card) 'cannot be done with Muster'. Not being able to play a card in a certain situation is not an action.

Just because something is in play doesn't mean you don't get to respond if it's something you can respond to. You can obviously respond to movement thru X, Y, Z.

The only thing the rules allow for is responding to the declaration of an action by declaring your own or initiating a new chain of effects by declaring an initial action. At no time do the rules allow for declaring any action in response to anything other than the declaration of an action.

You can obviously respond to a declaration of movement through X, Y, Z. That chain of effects occurs when you flip over a company's new site. Upon resolution of the declaration of movement, you both draw cards based on the company's new site. The movement action has resolved at this point. Nobody may respond to it because it's no longer a declared action in any chain of effects. You cannot all of a sudden in the middle of the m/h phase declare that you are now responding to the company's movement, any more than you can respond during the site phase to a character tapping in the organization phase, even though the character may still be tapped.

Unless "may not play X" is an action, it's not triggered by a passive condition and there's nothing to respond to. Setting up a "may not play X" effect is an action, but it is declared/resolved in the same chain of effects as the card play.

Consider the difference between Stealth and Hiding.

Stealth forbids the play of creatures. You can't respond to not being able to play creatures by playing creatures -- not being able to play creatures isn't an action, and the action of creating the effect occurred in the organization phase.

Hiding cancels all creature attacks. Canceling an attack is an action that can be triggered by the play of certain other cards. In this case, cancellation gets declared and can be responded to (by, say, making the attack uncancellable).

In both cases, a card is played in the Org Phase that has an effect until the end of the turn, but because one creates actions and the other does not, only one may be responded to in the m/h phase when both have their effect.

[Sauron]

Well it seems we're never going to see eye to eye on this.

I guess the question you're asking is if removing the use of sage / spell cards is an action.

I define it as yes, you define it as no.

[Bandobras Took]

Well it seems we're never going to see eye to eye on this.

I guess the question you're asking is if removing the use of sage / spell cards is an action.

I define it as yes, you define it as no.

I think so.

Does anybody have a good working definition of an action?