Tower Raided

[thorondor]

Even if so, some factions can be played at tapped sites (e.g. A Panoply of Wings).

but:

If this card is not discarded, all versions of this site are now Ruins & Lairs [R], and no factions are playable there. Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to your location deck."

[Morgul_Rat]

Please let me know if my logic is flawed here...maybe I am forgetting something.

I go to a site and play "A Panoply of Wings" and the site doesn't tap, I then play another "FREE" "A Panoply of Wings" (it's not unique, right?). Then, on my next turn face the auto attacks again and use something like "HOUR OF NEED" to play another faction that doesn't require the site to tap like "Beast of the Woods", then play a "FREE" "Noble Hound" ally who ALSO does not require the site to tap...then on my next turn face the auto attacks again and use "Tower Raided" to really max out the usage of the site.

Possible?

Seems like I could stay there all day with the number of allies and faction that don't require the site to tap. AND, I would pick a site with the least amount of number/lowest prowess of auto attacks I could find and still be legal to use "Tower Raided" at it.

[thorondor]

there is a difference betrween "doesnt tap the site" and "playable at a tapped site".

as the rules say: when a faction is played, you have to tap the site.
A Panoply of Wings doesnt negate this, it only says, that it can also be played a an already tapped site. so your example wont work.

dont forget, that you have to discard a 2MP item and some Knowledge, when you want to play Tower Raided!

[Morgul_Rat]

So I could do it the other way around...I can play Tower Raided first and then play all the factions and allies that can also be played at a tapped site. Right?

Just to be clear: I can stay at a site as long as I want and continue to face the auto attacks as many times as I want (on different turns) to play "something" if I succeed in defeating the attacks...as I want as long as it is legal to play that "something" at a tapped site and the site meets the "somethings" other requirements, right? Hope that wasn't too confusing of a question.

[Bandobras Took]

No. Tower Raided itself makes factions unplayable at the site -- it has nothing to do with the tapped status of the site.

[Konrad Klar]

Even if so, some factions can be played at tapped sites (e.g. A Panoply of Wings).

but:

If this card is not discarded, all versions of this site are now Ruins & Lairs [R], and no factions are playable there. Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to your location deck."

Yes. Whole trick (if it works) with Hour of Need is a playing at site with Tower Raided a faction playable somewhere else.

If it works. Because I'm not sure how exactly Hour of Need is working. Not sure whether faction is considered played at diplomat company's site, or nowhere, so not sure whether it requires untapped site.

[Shapeshifter]

Because I'm not sure how exactly Hour of Need is working. Not sure whether faction is considered played at diplomat company's site, or nowhere, so not sure whether it requires untapped site.

Hour of Need
May not be played in the Under-deeps.
@ If successful Hour of Need taps the site it is played at (not the site associated with the faction) [Van] %
@ Cannot be played at a tapped site [Van] %
@ Will not allow the play of a 'free' minor item when played in the organization phase [Van] %

[Konrad Klar]

@

Items new or changed in the last two months are marked with a '@'. This should make it easy for you to keep your rules knowledge up to date: just search the pages for @'s every month or two and you won't miss a thing.

%

Entries marked with a '%' are brand new: they haven't even been reviewed yet. Every new entry made is the result of a NetRep ruling, made in his rules digest. Filtering the new rulings from the digests and transferring them to the CRF should be a straightforward process - which is why we dare present them to you straight away. Nevertheless each new entry will be reviewed by the complete NetRep team to ensure quality. Once the entry has passed this review the '%' mark will be removed. Note that a %-entry may be changed without notice as a result of said review - this should rarely happen though, or we'll stop placing them on-line till after the review.

Especially "%" sign is the reason of my uncertainty.
Why "Cannot be played at a tapped site"? What is played at site? A faction, or Hour of Need itself?

[Shapeshifter]

Why "Cannot be played at a tapped site"? What is played at site? A faction, or Hour of Need itself?

IIRC this ruling was made to prevent cheezy Lorien squatter decks that played two factions there each turn (with HoN and Old Road). As I understand it:
a) Hour of Need (not the faction) needs an untapped site to be played and
b) Hour of Need taps the site after successful play of a faction

I don't know what the reason was to make HoN tap the site and not the faction.

off topic: maybe someone should split the Hour of Need discussion into a separate topic

[Bandobras Took]

Unless directly overridden, or if the card name happens to be Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill, a rule is considered to be in force. The rule that applies for Hour of Need is in the Balrog Player turn summary, page 17:

Items, Factions, and Allies can only be played at untapped site unless specifically allowed at a tapped sites on their card.

I deliberately left the grammatical error in by way of recognizing that the Balrog Player Turn Summary was a rushed document. On the other hand, Hour of Need does not provide an exception to this rule. All faction play rules make it clear that the faction is played at the site the influencing character is at, so the site must be untapped.

[Morgul_Rat]

CRF wrote:
Hour of Need
May not be played in the Under-deeps.
@ If successful Hour of Need taps the site it is played at (not the site associated with the faction) [Van] %
@ Cannot be played at a tapped site [Van] %
@ Will not allow the play of a 'free' minor item when played in the organization phase [Van] %

With this in mind, Hour of Need is the one that TAPS the site...The only thing HOUR OF NEED really allows you to do is to play a faction at a site that it normally CAN NOT be played at.

Sorry I caused such a stir...but I understand it all now. I was confusing "playable at a tapped site" and "doesn't tap the site" on the faction cards (as thorondor pointed out earlier) which then caused me to spiral into stupidity.

Thanks for alll the help! Half of the draw for me to the MECCG game is the player community!!!!

[Konrad Klar]

All faction play rules make it clear that the faction is played at the site the influencing character is at, so the site must be untapped.

What can I say: it is not obvious.
Compare it with Röac the Raven.
Röac the Raven's text says nothing about untapped site and, according to CRF, using it to play faction does not require an untapped site and does not tap the site. Still CRF does not say where (at which site) such faction is considered played.

Compare it also with Here, There, or Yonder.
It says in last verb: "If an ally is played, tap the site if it is not already tapped." And fairly speaking I don't know for what. It may be pure redundancy (because tapping a site is normal result of successful playing of ally*). It may also mean that tapping the site is result of the Here, There, or Yonder (that make this card less usable for FW players; it could not be used to play minion allies at minion sites).

Sorry I caused such a stir...

Thanks for that. It is really appreciated.

*) Except of influence attempt against an ally.

[thorondor]

Sorry I caused such a stir...

Thanks for that. It is really appreciated.

and its the way it usually goes:
someone is asking a "normal" rules question. "normal" players reply with "normal" answer. for some time everyting looks okay, BUT THEN:

konrad* enters the stage and starts arguing, bandobras* enters as well and starts arguing against, and so on ...

but your input is really appreaciated, dont worry guys! sometimes its just too much for normal players and its sort of funny



* you can as well exchange the names

[Konrad Klar]

BUT THEN: somone other* enters the scene and distinguish between normal and abnormal questions and answers, adding another abstraction layer to construction.

OK. Back to start.
Question was: "It is VERY complicated and doesn't seem to be worth playing...am I correct?? Is there something I am missing? I mean, you lose the MPs if the site is discarded. WHAT??!!??"
Quite open formula. Right?

If I would shrink may answer:

Player loses Tower Raided and its MPs if site is discarded.
Site will not be discarded if company will stay at site
OR
site is tapped and and No Strangers at this Time is played on it.
To acomplish second a player must play faction at the site before Tower Raided
OR
use trick to play at the site faction playable somewhere else.

"use trick to play at the site a faction playable somewhere else" is only one debatable part of this topic.
Because rules concerning Röac the Raven and Hour of Need are obscure.

)* Guess who.

[Konrad Klar]

Of course I agree that Hour of Need stuff should be moved to separate thread.

What I would say :
It is a nobody's fault that this problem was raised i Tower Raided thread. Each thing in this game is less or more connected to others.
And it is hard to predict which of raised things will ultimately deserve a dedicated thread.
Luckily in such situations things may be corrected later by moderators.
(If i can suggest something here, posts from
http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... =15#p14550
to
http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... =15#p14568

should be moved to separate thread).

Regards