Affecting company's site path and site's site path

[Konrad Klar]

Events can alter both a site's site path and a company's site path.

Scenario:
Company is moving from Ruined Signal Tower to Old Forest; hero site card are used.
Doors of Night and Foul Fumes are in play. Company has a ranger.
Withered Land is played on a causing treating the as .
Then Choking Shadows is played on a causing treating the as a .

Initially the company had in its site path.
Question is whether a player must specify on which Withered Land or Choking Shadows is played.
The one correlated with Enedhwaith, or the one correlated with Cardolan, or on unspecified .
In the scenario, depending of choice, Ruined Signal Tower or Old Forest would be tapped or not (tapping action will be declared as first action of next chain of effects).

Problem would be better visible if company would be under effect of Hey! come merry dol!.
Single in company's site path does not correlate with Enedhwaith, nor with Cardolan.

I think that the player must specify on which his card is played and that he can choose unspecified (there is no other option than "unspecified" if special movement as Forod is used or if target region symbol is middle symbol if started movement is used).

EDIT: replaced "Bree" with "Old Forest" and "Arthedain" with "Cardolan"

[CDavis7M]

I find that playing out the mechanics with cards (even in my mind) makes some things more clear.

Like, imagine flipping over Enedhwaith, Cardolan, and Old Forest and go from there.

[Konrad Klar]

Sorry. I cannot explain some problem as you see the problem.

[CDavis7M]

I don't see the problem because there is none. And I think it's clear that there is no problem if you play out the game according to the mechanics as I mentioned. The player could see that the in the sidebar of the Old Forest site is completely separate from the near the corner of the Cardolan region card.

"Question is whether a player must specify on which Withered Land or Choking Shadows is played."
Yes. Otherwise the card my not be played according to the rules in Section 10 of the rules, especially those under "EVENTS".

"The one correlated with Enedhwaith, or the one correlated with Cardolan, or on unspecified ."
Hmm... this doesn't make sense from the rules I've read. Something seems off...

" depending of choice, Ruined Signal Tower or Old Forest would be tapped or not (tapping action will be declared as first action of next chain of effects)."
The tapping action depends on the site's site path printed on the sidebar of the site card. But the symbols in the site's site path are not correlated with any region. At least, the rules do not say that they are even if it can usually be guessed by looking at the map. If anything is "correlated" it is the symbols on the region cards themselves that are correlated with the regions.

If the player uses starter movement and so uses the site's site path for the company's site path, then it is true that an effect altering the site's site path will affect the site path that the company is using. This is what the CRF is talking about. But if the company is suing region cards for their site path (as in this example) then altering the site's site path for purposes of bypassing the site-tapping effect of Long Winter does not affect the company's site path.

[Konrad Klar]

But if the company is suing region cards for their site path (as in this example) then altering the site's site path for purposes of bypassing the site-tapping effect of Long Winter does not affect the company's site path.

Company is moving from Bree to The White Towers and it's site path is . Then what if Arthedain region type is treated as in result of Choking Shadows?
I think that its site path will be then . And site paths of Bree, The White Towers and all sites in Arthedain will be affected.

[Konrad Klar]

And I agree that changing a region symbol in site path of Old Forest will not change a type of region of Cardolan and Rhudaur.
Opposite is not true.

[CDavis7M]

And I agree that changing a region symbol in site path of Old Forest will not change a type of region of Cardolan and Rhudaur.
Opposite is not true.

Which portions of the rules supports the opposite? I can't find it.

I recognize that there is the concept of the regions being the basis of the site's site path. And this is mentioned in the rules. But they do not mention that the region and the site path are one and the same, or what effects which operate on a region also operate on the corresponding region-type symbol in the site path.

I just recognize that ICE's ruling framework is "if it isn't there, it isn't there" and I just follow that.

[Konrad Klar]

Which portions of the rules supports the opposite? I can't find it.

Events can alter both a site's site path and a company's site path.

Company's site path and site's site path have something in common. Company moving to Old Forest has Cardolan in its path and bottom symbol on Old Forest card is correlated with normal type of region of Cardolan, upper symbol is correlated with Rhudaur.

Hey! come merry dol! and Roam the Waste may modify company's path not modifying site paths of site of origin and new site.

But if the company is suing region cards for their site path (as in this example) then altering the site's site path for purposes of bypassing the site-tapping effect of Long Winter does not affect the company's site path.

So you are speaking about opposite situation. Modifying site's site path and not modifying company's site path.
And I agreed that it may work.
If unspecified region type in site's site path is affected then neither region type in which the site is located is affected, nor region type of region in which Nearest Haven is located is affected. Consequently a site path of company using region movement and moving through the regions is not affected.

[CDavis7M]

Which portions of the rules supports the opposite? I can't find it.

Events can alter both a site's site path and a company's site path.

This is a portion of earlier rulings and I think it's clear in that context that "Event can alter both a site's site path and a company's site path" is referring to the situation where the company uses the site's site path as their own site path (Starter Movement), not region movement. There is nothing in this ruling to suggest anything more than that, especially as this is merely a "ruling by term."

Site Path

The site path depends on what sort of movement was used. If using starter
movement between Havens the site path is given on the Haven card in the
text box. If using starter movement to or from a non-Haven site the site
path is given on the non-Haven site, along the left side of the card. If
using region movement the site path is determined by the region cards
played on the company. In all of the above cases the site path includes the
site you are moving to.

Certain cards refer to the site's site path. The site's site path is always
the site path given on the site card, regardless of how the company got to
that site.

Events can alter both the site's site path and a company's site path.

This is an update from the slightly earlier FAQ #7

Q: How exactly is the site path determined?
A: The site path is determined by the way you got to the site. If you used starter movement the site path is the path on the site card for moving to and from a haven, or the path on the haven card for moving from haven to haven. If you are using region movement the site path is made of the region types on the region card you played. The site path always include the site type of the site you move to.

Q: Is any other site path ever considered besides the route a company takes when travelling?
A: Yes. For three cards from Me:TW in particular, Dragon's Desolation, Foul Fumes, and Long Winter, the site path listed with the site card itself must be considered, not the company's site path. For example, a company is at a site and chooses not to move. If the opponent plays Foul Fumes and Doors of Night, the site must tap if its site card contains a shadow-land symbol or dark-domain symbol. This site path is referred to as the site's site path, not the company's site path.

Q: Can I use short or long events to alter the site's site path?
A: Yes.

[Konrad Klar]

This is a portion of earlier rulings and I think it's clear in that context that "Event can alter both a site's site path and a company's site path" is referring to the situation where the company uses the site's site path as their own site path (Starter Movement), not region movement. There is nothing in this ruling to suggest anything more than that, especially as this is merely a "ruling by term."

Right.
This is my understanding of what determines company's site path and site's site path.
In my opinion some effects in play affect both company's site path and site's site path.
Some other effects in play in my opinion affect only company's site path or affect only site's site path.

The whole topic that I started is about determining what exactly happens when e.g. Choking Shadows is declared.

I see a possibility that in company's site path is not correlated with any site's site path. This happens when a company moves from Rivendell to Bree and is under effect of Hey! come merry dol!. Or if company moving from Mount Gram to Bree is under effect Roam to Waste.
I also see a possibility that a company moving from Ruined Signal Tower to Old Forrest has site path based on region type of Enedwaith and Cardolan and changing them to/treating them as the regions of type will affect both site's site path and company's site path.

[dirhaval]

Yes, I came into this issue last night in a game.

Region movement from Iron Hills to Anduin Vales.
company site path: W-W-BL-BL

Doors of Night in play with Foul Fumes.
The site's site path is W-BL.

Choking Shadows is played targeting the Wilderness on the site card.
Thus, the site becomes tapped, but with no ranger in company,
the company can still reaches the site since company
did not use Wold & Foothills since that region card was not affected.

Is this right? Sometimes I feel like Legolas shooting his bow
at night over the Anduin catching the eye of a fell beast.
of All the policies of Sauron he n'ver thought to bring a back-up fell beast.

[CDavis7M]

Choking Shadows is played targeting the Wilderness on the site card.
Thus, the site becomes tapped, but with no ranger in company,
the company can still reaches the site since company
did not use Wold & Foothills since that region card was not affected.

This follows my understanding: changing the region-type of the site's site path (to its nearest haven) has no effect on the regions or region cards themselves.

Digging further into this CRF clarification, it seems to be ancient going back to this:

*Q: Can I use short or long events to alter the site's site path?
*A: Yes.

So yes,

----------

From: Gnome <7633...@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 516
Date: 1998/10/17

<<If you taget a region type symbol of a region card, does it affect only
the company's site path ?>>

No. If affects any other thing that explicitly uses that region's type that
turn. However, do not interpret specific region types with starter
movement.

----------

<<If you target the region type symbol of a site's site path, and the
company is moving using starter movement, des it affect both region type
symbols on site's site path and region type symbol in company's site
path ?>>

In this specific case, yes. Here the company's site path is by definition
equal to the site's site path.

Though I remember Ichabod saying something the other way but I would need to dig more. And thinking more, I believe it was even discussed here.

But the bottom line for me is that there is nothing in the rules saying that altering the site's site path (which are specifically by type ONLY and NOT by region name) will have a corresponding effect on the region even if you can figure it out which regions they would be.

So sure, "Events [are capable of] alter[ing] both a site's site path and a company's site path." But that's all it's saying.

[Konrad Klar]

In this specific case, yes. Here the company's site path is by definition
equal to the site's site path.

If Starter Movement is used a company's site path is derivate of new site's site path. Or is path provided by Haven card if movement is between Havens.
Still it may be affected independently e.g. by Hey! come merry dol!. Hey! come merry dol! does not affect a site's site path.