pre selection for VC2 (?)

Where the Virtual Boyz plan their latest capers
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller »

ah that would explain, if those suggestions came up somewhere in other topics, I must say there are so many ideas by now, can't remember them all, I wasn't implying you slipped them in via backdoor, they just seemed completely new to me.

well pale is of course rather personal, but it just means that to me it doesn't add anything exciting. Map just replaces Vein and saves you a turn, that makes Mithril more playable indeed, but otherwise doesn't add, and that's a pitty. Or maybe I just don't see what's the point of making a deep mines your protected wizardhaven? So you can be safe playing veins and all other stuff there, is it too dangerous, or just you want to be down there and still be able to maintain a protected to play the big Stage? Sometimes it seems a bit mechanistic thinking. Or is it meant to build up to the 4 MP of Gnawed, I like moving ability to Ancient DH (see my Deepest Delving), but Gnawed can get you to other underdeeps as well now anyway, and does this merit 4 MP's? Well, those are just some thoughts, but that discusion should better take place at the relevant topics. Anyway I do agree Delver/Eater totally suck, you just throw them down for 1 mp, only kick you get out of them is the artwork...

most ring ideas included are beneficial for testing, but it could also be nice to make the ringplay itself more divers, what do you do with rings? Example, we talked about lesser rings or rings that give DI like spirit rings, and the idea is they are good for controlling characters, but that's just it, DI is always used for getting safe character mp's, why not design rings that create interaction between players via influencing. You know, just something along other lines than only helping the direct obstacles of ringplay, I agree we need to fix those, and Ringlore does perfect job, but there's more.

If we'd include all FW Saruman proposals, he would go from zero to hero in one second, honestly, even despite his crappy GI.

of course there's no need to include all those missions. And for most missions, there is no distinction between companies, for example it might be even better to go with your Diplo RW to play in the name of Mordor, not to mention cooler, because you can expect CvCC coming, and all other diplo's but the Mouth are pretty awful at that.

What hole does Steeds or Messenger fill? RW CvCC has become rather popular, now you can fly your guy everywhere so no one is safe. Steeds to me looks just like Heralded Lord only it doesn't discard or modify prowess.

Yes, Bairanax was quite an oddity, wasn't he? yet, I liked the idea of a RW riding a real dragon, some strange vision of the Fall of Gondolin, or siege of Tangorodrim, where all evil teams up. :wink:
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took »

I agree that some of the ideas are out there, but it won't be known until they're tested.

As far as the Fallen Saruman cards, I think all of them are needed and sufficiently balanced. He's got some good strategies now, but I don't think any of them are broken or overpowered, offhand.

The generic quest to the Ancient Deep-Hold just sought to make use of a generally useless card (Gnawed Ways) and have an underdeeps quest motif. The funny thing about making the Deep Mines a Protected Wizardhaven without cancelling the attacks keyed to the site is that Durin's Bane, Nameless Things, and various spiders can all show up there, not to mention some earth attacks, unless I miss my guess.

Getting your FW into the Ancient Deep Hold therefore includes a rather significant amount of risk, and 4 MPs is not too strong of a reward, IMO.

I haven't tried any of the ring cards in actual play yet, but there have been so many ideas on that score that we kind of just picked some to start out with. Definitely room for change there -- I especially like the idea of having someway to stop everybody and their dog from playing My Precious.
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Post by marcos »

What hole does Steeds or Messenger fill? RW CvCC has become rather popular, now you can fly your guy everywhere so no one is safe. Steeds to me looks just like Heralded Lord only it doesn't discard or modify prowess.
Steeds fills river threat for non ranger RWs ;)
Messenger of mordor fills the crap movement limitations that a RW has to reach sites because they can only use starter movement.
So one of the card prevents the abusive play of rivers on active RWs and the other helps speeding up the movement to your playzone or something, imagine a fell RW flying to gean a lisch and rebuiding the hold ;)

About delver/earth eater/ gnawe ways, i agree with ben, as far as they dont cancel the attacs underdeeps, they are not unbalanced, and they add some nice possibilities to a FW under deeps deck
Yes, Bairanax was quite an oddity, wasn't he? yet, I liked the idea of a RW riding a real dragon, some strange vision of the Fall of Gondolin, or siege of Tangorodrim, where all evil teams up.
that sounds pretty thematic, but then again, why bairanax? maybe we could make some card with an effect similar to ash mountains deeps, in wich you play the dragon creature from hand and it becomes an ally of the RW...

about rings, i'm not the most appropiate person to talk about them, so i leave that to b_took :P
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller »

yes the almighty river threat, and the starter thing, would it not be easier to abolish all these rather than desinging 10 cards all with the objective to move around it? Would it not be easier to accept a general rule that says river can only be played once per m/h phase? It just seems like so much trouble designing all these cards that do little else than overcome such petty obstacles, far reaching in effect they might be...

I didn't say Delver etc. was necessary unbalanced, but that imo they're pale, I think with a single card you can get the same end effect of FW moving to related underdeeps or balrog deeps, and do alot more, see the Far Below Deepest Delving proposal. Don't get me wrong, I like an underdeeps quest for FW's, just don't think you need these 3 cards for it.

In fact, I have used Gnawed alot, because one of the really cool things about FW's is the stories you can come up with, so rather than just go down from White Towers or Isengard, you can choose a site to make a haven and invade underdeeps from there. Yes that is cumbersome and doesn't win you the game...anyway, you can go to a related underdeeps from all 3 FW havens already with Gnawed, so you just need a card to include Balrog sites.
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Post by marcos »

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:yes the almighty river threat, and the starter thing, would it not be easier to abolish all these rather than desinging 10 cards all with the objective to move around it? Would it not be easier to accept a general rule that says river can only be played once per m/h phase? It just seems like so much trouble designing all these cards that do little else than overcome such petty obstacles, far reaching in effect they might be...
unfortunately virtual card events only apply UEPs if event organizer decides so, we'll have to stick to new cards rather than adding new rules for now.
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took »

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:yes the almighty river threat, and the starter thing, would it not be easier to abolish all these rather than desinging 10 cards all with the objective to move around it? Would it not be easier to accept a general rule that says river can only be played once per m/h phase? It just seems like so much trouble designing all these cards that do little else than overcome such petty obstacles, far reaching in effect they might be...
There's also currently no ally to put a RW in Heralded Lord mode, with Steeds does. Messenger is a rough equivalent of Eagle Mounts. I agree that 10 cards aren't needed just to overcome River, but some are.
I didn't say Delver etc. was necessary unbalanced, but that imo they're pale, I think with a single card you can get the same end effect of FW moving to related underdeeps or balrog deeps, and do alot more, see the Far Below Deepest Delving proposal. Don't get me wrong, I like an underdeeps quest for FW's, just don't think you need these 3 cards for it.
The proposed Far Below the Deepest Delvings currently does not give any MPs to a Fallen Wizard, and all it will really do is make people visit several different Deep Mines. Great Trolls and a Nasty Slimy Thing will be available at the Deep Mines and won't encourage the FW to stick his nose outside of his haven except to go there. Granted that I like Fallen Saruman, it shouldn't be that easy for him to get his ally points. :)
In fact, I have used Gnawed alot, because one of the really cool things about FW's is the stories you can come up with, so rather than just go down from White Towers or Isengard, you can choose a site to make a haven and invade underdeeps from there. Yes that is cumbersome and doesn't win you the game . . . anyway, you can go to a related underdeeps from all 3 FW havens already with Gnawed, so you just need a card to include Balrog sites.
That's the point. I'm the first to favor theme over winning (as my record on GCCG so admirably proves ;)), but Virtual Cards are about introducing new things that people will actually use -- a card that simply opens up access to Balrog sites for a FW isn't going to excite me because I can't do much at them that isn't more easily done at a surface site/deep mines. The Gnawed Ways combo gives a total of 5 MPs (plus whatever they've managed to play in the meantime) for spending several turns in the Underdeeps and having your avatar face some nasty auto-attacks. Even without Gnawed Ways, Earth-Eater can promote an active Under-deeps deck, while Delver's Harvest can turn the game into one of those fun untapping wars. :) In other words, as with the RW movement enhancers, each card serves two purposes, not just one.

I'll cease rambling now and attempt to put something coherent together later.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller »

this is coherent enough to get the point though :wink:
good criticism is always appreciated.

well TRT/IU/KU/DU have all been designed to move a RW with croonies, and one or the main reason was so he can avoid rivers. (Anyway Uvatha can join you everywhere, not to mention how often Deeper Shadow is used on a lone RW). And if you have a Black Council, you can also take let's say Tarcil with you. So that makes quite a bit of overlap. (). Why do we need an ally for heralded lord, for reasons of symmetry? I'm saying we should be parsimonious not to create too many cards for RW movement.

Far Below says: balrog ally's can be played only at balrog ruins, so not any Deep Mines. Also you get points for each site, which encourages moving and since you can't duplicate a Deep Mines under the same Haven, you have to get off your but to make something of it. But we could make it worth points, like Gnawed, or state Ancient DH is worth more than 1 mp (just chose this way so a FW wouldn't have to do something to modify those mp's), or something like a minion Uttermost Foundations.

Yes do something meanwhile, while building up the Delver combo, like dropping more Delvers/Earths you mean? boring. Or play some half-orc faction. To be in a haven is still alot safer than to be in a ruins, even though Nameless/Durin's can be played; a great shadow-balrog is not coming for you after all, the coward bastard that he is, I'd rather face a Nameless (Forewarned anyone? nice 3 mp's), than a stirred Uruk Lieutenant. Any way or the other, why is it necessary to build a haven down there if the object is to move elsewhere, and that can be achieved in 1 card rather than 3? The 5 mp from the combo comes mainly from visiting the Ancient DH site after all, where you can also play two greater items, should you manage that. So the prelude imo is not necessary, and 4 MP might therefore be a bit overdone for visiting one site.

the main advantage of building a protected down there would be that you can still play Strident and WH and such, while not leaving a company up. Of course that has it's uses, but on the other hand, if you focus on delving deep, is it justified you still play WH or the other big stage, without having a haven above ground?
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Post by marcos »

so i'd say that either black council or steeds would have to go...
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Post by marcos »

forgot to mention that i agree with ben on this:
That's the point. I'm the first to favor theme over winning (as my record on GCCG so admirably proves Wink), but Virtual Cards are about introducing new things that people will actually use -- a card that simply opens up access to Balrog sites for a FW isn't going to excite me because I can't do much at them that isn't more easily done at a surface site/deep mines. The Gnawed Ways combo gives a total of 5 MPs (plus whatever they've managed to play in the meantime) for spending several turns in the Underdeeps and having your avatar face some nasty auto-attacks. Even without Gnawed Ways, Earth-Eater can promote an active Under-deeps deck, while Delver's Harvest can turn the game into one of those fun untapping wars. Smile In other words, as with the RW movement enhancers, each card serves two purposes, not just one.
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Post by Bandobras Took »

Missed the "there" in Far Below; however, non-stage resources can't modify a FWs MPs, so unless we cram in "This card affects a Fallen Wizard's Marshalling Points," it won't give any points to a Fallen Wizard.
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou »

I would like to participate in online testing.... could you tell me which cards would need additional testing for V2???
which ones werent tested before?
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Post by marcos »

well, all cards in virtual set 2. Some of them has been played a few times. But to know if a card is overpowered or not, we need to test it several times against several kind of decks
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Post by Frodo »

I finally read through the spoiler lists for V sets 2 and 3.

I have to say, I am very, very impressed and excited by these cards. Most of them don't feel like generic effects added just to redo some hazard/resource, but carefully thought-out, rich and immersive texts in and of themselves ("Texts" is the right word because I don't think ANY of these cards is less than a few sentences!). What I liked most of all, though, was how the choice of the card name really went well with the game mechanic... like Bridge with canceling Rivers... that is an aesthetic design that I appreciate.

Note that I'm not saying anything at the moment about whether they are over/underpowered, or even needed or not, just that they are cool to look at and think about. Nice job, guys!

The only problem is that I feel left out, because I never posted the 10 0r 15 cards I had already designed for V-Set #2... sigh... is it too late to add new ideas?

Frodo :(
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou »

it is nerver to late for new insights...

and if they don't make it in V2 ...thex still can get in V3...or even 4
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Post by Frodo »

Okay, I'll post a few!

Frodo
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