Thorsten’s version is looking good to me. Some comments:
RESOURCE PLAYER STORING USRIEV
>but unless we make it non duplicable, 3 of them can be played at let's say Raider Hold/Sarn Goriwing and stored in 1 turn for 9 mp's just around the corner.
What do you mean? How can you play 3 Usrievs at one site on one turn? If you simply meant that you can store a copy a full turn after you play it, I don’t see that as broken… if they weren’t Usrievs, they’d be real major items worth 2 MP each, so it means you can net 3 extra MP maximum by taking at least one extra turn to move the item to a haven.
I think we can invent theme easily enough; e.g. Sauron wants these items to replace or make the curses stronger on them, or just to nourish and build-up his own evil with such devices (especially if we make them playable at the free-people's homes; see my suggestion below). However, Thorsten’s new version encourages the minion player to actually transfer the item, which I like a lot. I think we can forgo the storage bonus unless we decide to award MPs, like maybe just 2, even if the item is stored (then we have that apply regardless of WHO stored it).
DISCARDING BEARER
>But I do see the problem that if the character becomes reckless and if you don't want to kill him or give him creature mp's, he could play some factions easily. Items no problem, he would just load up on corruption. Allies the same, it's not that difficult to discard this guy. Ok it's a low minder, but maybe he can play some factions, or keep some site in play or whatever.
I’m not too worried about that. You are still getting 3 MP for the
inverting.
>>As it was, I suppose Usriev would just be discarded like any other item: it's in the road to be found by whosoever. If it goes to MP pile inverted, you can only play one. Maybe we can place it in mp pile uninverted, being worth 1 MP, so if char is killed it still gives you a point for the whole affair. An Usriev in mp pile would then more or less be not the item but a representation of the item at work. You can then find it again in the road, by playing another.
[…]But come to think of it, we can even add: may not be stored. Opponent will not gladly store it anyway, giving you 3 mp, but at least he's rid of it, he keeps his character, and it's in play so you can't transfer another on him. But if we make it unstorable - character is possessed with it after all, so why give it up? - he would have to go to his doom somehow.
[…]We could make it: if character is discarded at haven or home site, place this card (inverted) in owners mp pile. Then character will have to go beserk and on suicide missions. But do we really want that? that's effectively killing a character. Well, he could decide to give you the 3 mp's, and maybe he get's some mp's to boot.
Hmm… first of all, if we simply say that the item goes to the MP pile when discarded, I don’t think it’s inverted unless we say so, since “cards in the MP pile have no memory of how they were played”, but does this mean played TO the MP pile, or does it mean placed into play? Technically the inverting happens after the playing, so who the hell knows? (Though logically it seems to me that inverted status should be kept.)
I think that we can argue either way about the storing, theme-wise, so then our decision should be balance. Let’s let it happen for now.
Ok, now I don’t think discarding a character is as obvious a solution as it seems. You need two turns to do this, first of all. Second, sure there’s a GI issue, but you don’t necessarily have a character to back him up with, either, especially mid or late game. So the “reckless alone” play, which would ideally be slightly encouraged anyway, is (depending on the character).
Let’s review the options for a 5-minder:
1) Discard your guy (Opponent loses 3 MP (and an item!), you lose 2 MP)
2) Store the weapon (Opponent loses nothing, you lose nothing but a turn (plus two movement/hazard phases of company safety-in-numbers)
3) Wander around like Johnny Cash (Opponent loses nothing, you lose nothing and can continue to immediately seek out MPs)
This looks pretty fair to me, except that number 1 might still be too negative an effect on the minion player—imagine, the opponent can try to skillfully place the Usriev on an **already** wounded character, so then he would be actually losing very little but discarding this guy. Also, it would be nice to encourage option 3. Maybe it already is.
We could have Usriev give 1 MP if discarded; or 1 MP if discarded and 2 MP if stored (by either player). We might be splitting hairs too much. Shall we try it without any additional MP clauses for now?
HOBBITS
Why not let it play on hobbits? Pippin, for example, was still obsessed with the Palantir, even going so far as attempting to steal it. But also, even though hobbits in general are not full of greed per se, they are intensely curious, especially about weird objects (crystal balls and spoons I suppose!) My concern was whether hobbits would attack the bearer. I suppose if they truly recognized the character as corrupted they would. (Attacking still seems like a more severe activity than merely accepting the Usriev. Maybe hobbits would accept the weapon, become objects of divisiveness for others (aka the company fighting over Frodo’s ring, the jealousy over his mail coat) but the hobbits themselves would not covet the items by attacking them… I mean, they give out presents on their own birthdays!
OTHER
>why site phase only? if you're dumb enough to move to or stick around a site where there's a covert diplomat with Usriev, you deserve it coming. Or, if you Siege your opponent, you deserve it also.
Site phase only simply limits the strength of the card, because you need to actually enter the site. It’s not just a question of being dumb enough to stick around to get pinned with it during the organization phase… if we make it at any time, than a minion company with Usriev can chase a hero company anywhere, even a normally safe to hide in like Lorien, and before the opponent even gets a chance to move away again, you can decide NOT to enter the site, then tap the diplomat during your end-of-turn phase and give Usriev over to someone, skipping all those nasty autos! So we need to say site phase, as follows:
“if bearer is at the same site as opponent’s company during any player’s site phase”
>>can you play cards on the attack? for both attacker and defender?
Sure, why not? It’s your turn. Just like the minor item traps in Dark Minions that create an attack.
>Also, can you tap to transfer this during your opponent's turn? I'm not sure if doing something like is allowed during CvCC when it's your opponent's turn.
Hmm, it depends whether giving somebody a weapon counts as “adding prowess”, or if that’s too indirect. But even if you can’t do it during CVCC, you simply have to do it before CVCC, since that must always be the last action initiated during the site phase. I’m sure that actions are allowed during an opponent’s site phase, otherwise, why would magical harp work? I’m sure you can declare twilight as well.
Btw, obviously this is a pretty strong major item! if you guys thought it needed a slightly harder playability, we could add something rather thematic like: “Playable only at a free-hold or border-hold where major items are playable.” If we really wanted to make it crazy, we could just say “free-hold.” It still bother me that if you can't find (or risk finding) an opponent's company, this item is only worth 1 MP to you. Remember that if you chase down a hero company to give this to and then give it to them on your turn but you don't initiate cvcc 'cause they are huge, the opponent will suffer one attack, let the cursed fellow move away with the item, then STAY there and whale on your sorry minion ass! ANOTHER reason why I think Usriev might also be used defensively, perhaps even more often, depending on how your "covert diplomat" company measures up to the heroes. I wish it was worth, say, 2 MP stored at least (and if it was playable at free-people's homes, the storage theme feels more appropriate), because then you'd have the option of returning it to Sauron at the end of the game.
Current version? Unless we agree with the hobbit change. Also, do we really need to have opponent make attacker’s rolls? It’s not like attacker has full control anyway, like choosing whether to tap or not, etc. Kind of spookier to have owner do it too.
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Usriev of Treachery. 1(3)
Weapon. Warrior only: +1 prowess (+2 against Elves). Covert Diplomat only: if bearer is at the same site as opponent’s company during any player’s site phase, he may tap to transfer Usriev of Treachery (invert this card) to any non-Hobbit character in opponent’s company with a mind <6. If Usriev is inverted, it cannot be transferred again, and each untap phase a character in bearer's company with a mind <6 attacks him (opponent’s choice): if bearer becomes wounded, attacker takes control of Usriev. Only one inverted Usriev may be in play per player. This item is worth 1 MP to the owner of this card (3 if inverted).
Frodo