Council of Elrond

*me is not too sure about Indur using hog cards*

Hello Vastor,

What i meant by being more specific was if you could explain what a typical deck might look like--which named Balrog MP cards Indur might get, what other cards can be combo-ed at the same site, allies, etc.

Thanks!

Frodo

Sry for my laziness, but the introduction of my dream card firstborn expansion came into the middle of it.

So as I see it we are talking about 4 Balrog specific cards playabale at these sites:

Caverns Unchoked at Ancient Deep-hold, Remains of Thangorodrim, The Drowning-deeps, Rusted-deeps or the Wind-deeps

Evil Things Lingering (with Indur Unleashed playable only at Remains of Thangorodrim)

Makers Map at Ancient Deep-hold or Remains of Thangorodrim

Nasty Slimy Thing at Ancient Deep-hold, Remains of Thangorodrim, The Drowning-deeps, Rusted-deeps or the Wind-deeps

so along with these the come of course Black Mace, High Helm and Sable Shield

on top of that there is: That Ain't No Secret, to maximize the points playable at these new site

Hope this covers it all

mfg Nicolai

I ran this potential idea via Tommi (wigy) and he said this is possible to do on GCCG. So, all it depends on is if you want to go down this route or not.

After a cursory look at these cards, I fail to see the strength (and therefore the purpose) in allowing these cards for Indur.

Essentially, he gets one cool ally (for only 2MP) if played at a very difficult to reach site (and dangerous to boot). 2MP Maker's Map is not worth it. Sure, when you follow these plays with a greater item, you have a 5MP turn... if someone else can get through the attack with Indur. But more importantly, why do your 5MP combos at these insane sites when you can just do them at regular minion sites (for 1 mp less perhaps, since major item sites are more popular), usually not with information, but just by simply playing *two* items at an Under-deeps site?

What I really wanted from Vastor (or anyone) was an *analysis* of how this deck would work and be more successful and more interesting than without such cards allowed. Anyone?

What would be really neat is if someone could think of a way Indur could use Caverns Unchoked, or some kind of information combo, in his strategy. If he actually had a reason to visit a series of sites to gain later tactical advantages over other sites.

Frodo

I'm going with Jambo's original suggestion for now. Hopefully this will open up new options.

Indur Unleashed

If Indûr is in play (as your Ringwraith), his company may use Under-deeps movement (+2 to movement rolls) and he may play The Balrog as an ally. While at Under-deeps sites or surface sites, Indûr’s company may contain non-Ringwraith characters. If in Heralded Lord mode, tap Indûr Unleashed at the end of Indûr’s movement/hazard phase to allow him to move again using Under-deeps movement. If in Black Rider mode, one character in Indûr’s company may heal at any Under-deeps site during the untap phase. You may play mode cards on Indûr’s company when he is at any Under-deeps site, returning other mode cards to your hand. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item.

Frodo

Had an idea for making the ally option more feasible, because I like it thematically, Sauron sending out one of his servants to look in the deep places and see if there's still any of his old mates lingering from back in the First Age....

However this is meant for another card, the discussion might fit here.

Far below the Deepest Delvings V: permanent-event
Place this card on your non-Balrog avatar if in play. If on your avatar, the following applies to your avatar's company. You may place any tapped under-deeps ruins 'n lairs with this card; it is not discarded when moving to another site.This card is worth 1 MP for each site attached, and you draw one extra card for each site attached when moving to an under-deeps ruins 'n lairs. You may use Balrog ruins 'n lairs sites that have no hero version and you may play Balrog specific allies there (even Balrog only). A fallen wizard receives full mp's for this card, but must make a cc each time he reveals an under-deeps site. This card may be played in lieu of a minor item in your starting company, and you may then include Balrog specific allies in your deck and sideboard. You may discard an attached site at any time during the game. Cannot be duplicated.

This will promote travelling to the more dangerous underdeeps (from minion perspective) and gives Indur something to do downstairs, other than playing trolls and fires. But of course a fallen wizard is also a rarity in the underdeeps, which is a pitty. It can be played for 2 mps on deep mines, but avatar will have to go down himself to get it. Maybe Gnawed Ways will actually be used some day! Made it applicable only to avatars company so he should get of his ass, and otherwise the draw advantage could be too good for companies just moving back and forth under-vaults. Also reflects that the avatar gains some underdeeps knowledge. Problem is of course it might easily takes 3 turns to get him down there, so this card won't be overpowered I suppose, to get more than 4 mps out of it you need quite a long game.

Why can't Indur start at the Under-Courts btw? Would be nice for playing Fell Beasts at Ash-Mountains V. Badbeards can use Ancient Stair V to get moving fast.

other options:
If you have 3 balrog allies, you may play Breach the Hold?
A FW must have certain SP's to play balrog allies, or be overt, or discard a spell, or tap his wizard ring?

Question about the latest version: Indur can be in fell rider and with other guys?
I think the being with croonies at surface site is prone to abuse.

Abuse - in what way?

Indur can have characters in company and be in Fell Rider mode, but I'm not sure why someone would do this. The other two modes have better abilities, and Indur actually has 1 less prowess as a Fell Rider...

He can squat with big comp at Gundabad playing orcs there that can move above the ground fast. Gundabad is alot safer than the underdeeps to squat for fires/bats whatever.
In the Mordor merry-go-round he can sit at Barad-dur with guys.
Heck he can even squat at Moria with Anarin and Broin, which I must say is pure evil and thus ok.

point is, you want him to be moving with the guys, not sitting around. Personally I don't like the heralded Indur that much, let someone else play the Great Army and visit those sites with normal movement, you don't need underdeeps for it. Dive and emerge is funny, but I suspect you might sooner use his Heralded influence for squatting.
What you say Marcos?

about Fell rider: it's not so much question of it being useful, rather it being strange. Also there's the card conflict issue, other than KU, IU doesn't specify they can be in his comp when in fell rider.

Yes I see there's a conflict of interest with Fell Rider's text and IU's text, however, no sane player will ever play Fell Rider with Indur, so I guess the question is do we deal with it or just leave it? If there's no desire to keep the different mode abilities, then perhaps we just do away with all but Black Rider? I would like to see the moving again ability made default, since we all know that successful Balrog Under-deeps decks all use Gangways of Fire!

In terms of big company squatting at one of those sites, is it really that much better just because Indur can be there too? Anywhere other than a darkhaven can be targeted by a buffed hero company for CvCC.

Based on the first point above here's an alternative for consideration:

If Indûr is in play (as your Ringwraith) and in Black Rider mode, his company may use Under-deeps movement (+2 to movement rolls) and he may play The Balrog as an ally. Tap this card at the end of Indûr’s movement/hazard phase to allow his company to move again using Under-deeps movement. While at Under-deeps sites or surface sites thereof, Indûr’s company may contain non-Ringwraith characters and may attack or be attacked by a minion company containing The Balrog. One character in Indûr’s company may heal at any Under-deeps site during the untap phase. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item.

Added a clause for a bit of minion Balrog interaction.

except for the black rider part it looks ok...

If indur NEEDS black rider to move, it means that to prevent a bit of hand clog:

-you have to include 3 copies of black rider in deck and 1 IU as starting or;
-you have to include 3 copies IU in deck and 1 TRT or;
-you have to put both TRT and IU as starting or;
-you have to include 3 copies of black rider in deck and 3 IU in deck too

This means that you might limit not only the composition of a starting company but several slots in deck too (probably). For example, let's say you want to use some agent as starting, then you need open to the summons and that gives no room for some minor item or one of the aforementioned cards and you will have to include 3 copies of the card that you don't control as starting in deck, reducing slots for some other usefull resources. Let's say you want to play 2 leaders, then you need orders from lugburz and again you cannot include both of TRT and IU as starting and is the same problem as before...

point is, you want him to be moving with the guys, not sitting around. Personally I don't like the heralded Indur that much, let someone else play the Great Army and visit those sites with normal movement,

hehe that pretty much looks like my Indur tourneyt deck

Dive and emerge is funny, but I suspect you might sooner use his Heralded influence for squatting.
What you say Marcos?

In my book, minion squatting at those kind of sites is not one of the strongest strategies, it can be easily stopped by some troll-purses, doubled vigilance, heedless revelry, stench of mordor (if upstairs), etc. I think that very very very few peoples will use this card to promote squatters deck...

That is my point of view...

You still have to draw Indur of course! I guess one might have 3 x IU in deck as a matter of course for the extra Under-deeps movement that it offers.

One could also just remove all reference to mode?

Well, he could be sitting at B-dur controlling Shagrat who plays the factions, and himself the helmet/creature, and can't be influenced away, and no troll purse/doubled vigilance would touch him, heedless doesn't affect rw's. And any non unique orc can be played there and move there to draw. Oh well....
btw the cards you mention have same effect on a moving comp. so that is little difference.

This means that you might limit not only the composition of a starting company but several slots in deck too (probably).

agreed, but such are the limits of composition I suppose, then the only option is to let Indur move without mode, or let IU give the black rider mode?

I like the inherent Balrog competition - hence also my Deepest Delvings proposal - so that Prone to Violence is nice!

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:Well, he could be sitting at B-dur controlling Shagrat who plays the factions, and himself the helmet/creature, and can't be influenced away, and no troll purse/doubled vigilance would touch him, heedless doesn't affect rw's. And any non unique orc can be played there and move there to draw. Oh well....

and you plan to get to 25 MPs playing such a deck ... that would be hard...

btw the cards you mention have same effect on a moving comp. so that is little difference.

of course but they have a big impact on a squatter company, because all that hazards (except heedless) are permanent events, so they have to deal with them each turn... A moving company can just run away from that site and problem solved...

agreed, but such are the limits of composition I suppose, then the only option is to let Indur move without mode, or let IU give the black rider mode?

exactly... same as the tested version...

I like the inherent Balrog competition - hence also my Deepest Delvings proposal - so that Prone to Violence is nice!

i like that too