Council of Elrond

Guys, is there to be a change to Morannon? I know Frodo and Eric were debating this in the feedback thread, but with Worlds fast approaching it would be nice to tie set #1 up.

That would be nice indeed .
You're free to jump in that discussion though. The card functions as it is, so there is no problem, only it's a pitty things have to be handled all in one turn. What we are discussing is making it 'bigger' in potential effect. I really like the forced draw potential! Nobody has an opinion on that? I feel it's too big for me to see all consequences of such 'revolutionary' effect.

I asked you if you could move the discussion on Morannon to this section, but you're no moderator of the showcase section?

Any final thoughts on this one Frodo? has it escaped your attention, or is it rather keeping you awake at night? it's a small step for designers, but a giant leap for meccg-kind...
anyone else with a verdict?

Morannon V wrote:

Playable on a company at Minas Tirith. Company may move to Cirith Gorgor via Dagorlad. Tap this card when Aragorn II, Boromir II, Denethor II, Faramir, Galadriel or Saruman is in the company at Cirith Gorgor (ignore effects forcing company to do nothing). This card only untaps if company is not at a site in Udun or Gorgoroth. If tapped, each site phase company faces the following attacks: Orcs 5@10, Trolls 3@12, Men 1@13, and attacks from each nazgul permanent-event in play. Following these attacks, you may replace site with Barad-dur. If this card is tapped and one of aforementioned characters is at Barad-dur bearing The One Ring, at the end of site phase s/he faces an attack alone: maia 1@24. If attack is defeated, bearer makes a corruption check: if succesful, you win. Otherwise you lose.

Cracks of Doom V wrote:

Playable on a company at Mount Doom. As resource playable if opponent has a tapped Morannon V in play. Also playable as a hazard at the beginning of the site phase, if you have a tapped Morannon V in play. Discard this card if company doesn't bear a gold-ring item, or if The One Ring is in play but not at Mount Doom. If not in play, the player of this card must replace a gold ring item in the company with The One Ring as if tested. The bearer of The One Ring makes a corruption check: if succesful, both players have a draw, otherwise, both players lose. Both players may play resources in support on corruption check.

Smarty pants. I swear that I was actually reading through the posts when you wrote this message! But yes, your last message made my mind rattle on a too-late work night so I let it be, and then more or less forgot about it. Btw, I moved the old discussion to this forum, though I found it impossible to combine the topics together (if anyone knows how to do this, let me know.)

Yet again though, I have to wait until Monday night to respond. Sorry. I spent all night responding to every OTHER forum.

Frodo

MORANNON and SUDDEN CALL Discussion

Time to smoke my own mind-enhancing drugs; I call it: Ent-Draught (V)!

ABOUT SUDDEN CALL

>>3 Do we feel One Ring or Scroll should be present at Mount Doom for Sudden Call? Themewise yes, but both requirements will hamper the card seriously. The One isn't played until site phase, and Scroll is not always present. Therefore I'd say, just a gold-ring item must be present, representing the One.

Good catch on the ring issue, Thorsten. Since the point of Sudden Call is to try and stop a One Ring player who screws up the turn he “runs” and fails to enter the site, you’re right, there’s a chance he won’t even have the One Ring in play next turn, which of course is a too easy limitation for the Sudden Call/Morannon player who wishes to stop him. I guess it’s not necessary to say “or the Scroll”, because a ring is enough.

>A) I first had "The bearer of The One Ring faces an attack alone: maia 1@24 (cannot be cancelled). If bearer is still in active play following the attack...." but then thought that the whole idea was that the comp. at B-dur or Cirith Gorgor was distracting Sauron, so he would not attack at Mount Doom. Of course you can have Sauron attack opponent, but what would that matter, you both either win or lose if you play this card. I agree it feels a bit lame to just have the cc and be done with it, but that's what dunking actually means. We could introduce some Gollum attack of some kind of course...

Agreed that Ringbearer should not be attacked, at least at first, by Sauron. Sauron might technically catch up with him, though, once the bluff is revealed, as in the books. As far as whether the results should be a draw or double loss, or a draw and a win, I have to think about it slightly more, but I believe you are correct. Non-tourney games might see them as same thing? Maybe not… players will see one as 'the game having beaten them' and the other as them having beaten the game...

>B) made it [Sudden Call] playable at beginning of site phase as hazard, so that no testing is done yet. However, if you do arrive with The One, can you then play Cracks o Doom or Gollum's Fate in response? I suppose you can...

IF SUDDEN CALL (V) HAZARD IS PLAYED DURING THE SITE PHASE:
Can you explain why exactly you made it at beginning of site phase? I hope it wasn’t just to avoid anti-ring hazards being played. There’s a problem with this mechanic however: As far as playing Cracks/Gollum’s Fate (or Wizard’s Test) in response to Sudden Call in the site phase, this is legal, but three different results of such a bold move are then possible: A) if the Cracks player already had his own One Ring in play, this move will assuredly give him the win (because we assume he was well-prepared with CC helpers), or B) if the Cracks player did not already have his own One Ring in play, he could NOT respond with Cracks/GF, and he will now be forced to go for a likely tie (because we assume he was well-prepared with CC helpers) or an resentful double loss. (Btw, the reason why he can’t respond with Cracks/GF is because to announce the play of these cards requires the One Ring to be in play, so even if he tried to respond with test card(s), THEN Cracks/GF, his failed chain of response would look like this:
Sudden Call (V)
Cracks/GF
Wizard’s Test
Wizard’s Test
Wizard’s Test

The Wizard’s Tests would resolve first, presumably giving him the One, but it doesn’t matter because the declaration of Cracks/GF is illegal.) Or C) if the Cracks player did not already have his own One Ring in play, he could respond with all of his Wizard’s Tests, in hopes of blowing all of the rolls and thus discarding all of his rings in his company. This would result in Sudden Call (V) fizzling since its later targets (a ring) cannot be met. This is a rather insane and desperate maneuver, however, because without any rings the straight One Ring player will almost assuredly lose (unless he has a ring in another company) to the Morannon player, unless he has quite a hazard hand ready for him, so I list it only so we understand the options.

It gets more complicated. The resource player can always play actions first in any phase (usually not an issue save for m/h phase). This means if the resource player had his own One Ring at Mount Doom during the site phase, the wise Morannon player would NOT play his Sudden Call (V), but would WAIT for the resource player to play his Cracks/GF. Once he did, the Morannon player would respond with Sudden Call (V) and force a draw. There is absolutely nothing the One Ring player can do to stop this, EXCEPT the interesting option of NOT playing Cracks/GF and declaring his site phase to be over (or simply not enter the site). Then, he can hope that the forces of Sauron will finish annihilating the Morranon party, so that he can safely play Cracks next turn. As turns go by though he might feel desperate enough to ask for the Morannon player’s help. I like this option because it gives the One Ring player a choice: does he go for the gold, or wait another turn? By the way, I don’t think we can legitimately put the phrase “Beginning of site phase” for the hazard Sudden Call—would this mean the resource player could simply say “Well, now it’s the end of my site phase, so you can’t play that card anymore?” Of course not. The only reason to do it would be to force the hazard player to get an action before the resource player, but this changes the game’s mechanics a bit and is actually weaker for the hazard player! Also note: Since Sudden Call is playable during the site phase it means the player can do it on the turn the One Ring player runs. Is this too fast? IN CONCLUSION REGARDING SITE PHASE OPTION: The Sudden Call (V) hazard player has a strong advantage, but does not have absolute control of the situation. However, this option gives the Sudden Call player the most speed against anti-Mount Doom One Ring.

After all that is said and done, let’s consider what happens if you make Sudden Call hazard playable during the m/h phase…

IF SUDDEN CALL (V) HAZARD IS PLAYABLE DURING THE M/H PHASE:
The first problem is that he might not be at Mount Doom yet. This means the hazard becomes significantly slower… you have to STOP him from dunking on his run to even have a chance of playing this card! (However, if this was an issue, we could always make it playable on a company “at or moving to Mount Doom.”) The next problem is… Oh. Yeah, I get it. The One Ring player can’t actually DO anything in response, because he can’t play Cracks until the site phase. (To be fair, if he didn’t have the One Ring yet, he could test in response and try to blow all his rings off, like in the previous example.) This means the Sudden Call hazard player who was already set up with Morannon would have the advantage and would **always** force the draw. Okay, that’s bad (unless we decide that Morannon is so slow that this speed is needed, so let’s not forget about this option). But if Sudden Call was only playable on a squatting Mount Doom company, he’s already wasted a turn, so perhaps he deserves to have this draw forced upon him. IN CONCLUSION REGARDING THIS OPTION: I am naturally more attracted to the site phase option, because it gives less of an absolute result. However, it irks me a little to allow a hazard to be played during the site phase, although I guess there’s precedents for that. More importantly, there’s a chance that option is simply too fast. It could be adjusted, however (for example, couldn’t we make it playable as an onguard card that’s revealable in response to a ring test or Cracks of Doom/GF? Interestingly, the dunk player could defend with Withdrawn to Mordor.)

I have to say, I LOVE the idea of the straight One Ring getting a little nervous that he can’t defeat Sauron alone, and so needing the help of the Morannon player and getting to play Sudden Call (V) to call on him for assistance, too! Superb idea! And yes, I can easily see circumstances where the One Ring player would feel the odds are against him, and that he better go for the draw.

(The other really amazing point, from a thematic view, is that only if one of these players is a turn ahead of the other do they have a chance at a full 7-0 win. If someone gets delayed, and so they are both at their needed sites at the same time, the odds are strong that Sudden Call will be played, and if it is played, the odds are strong that the game will end in a draw. Which is just how it should be with both forces there, from a thematic view.)

So other thoughts about Sudden Call? Which option do we take? Btw, I am 95 percent sure I like your version better than a Sauron/Morannon attack on the dunk player, but let me think about it a little more (I also liked the idea of the Morannon eventually affecting the dunk player… perhaps we could still add this benefit to Sudden Call (V), but since at present the play of Sudden Call (V) forces a draw, this would do nothing unless we rethought it a bit.

ABOUT MORANNON

I have to say, you took a cool card and made it cooler, Thorsten. Your version just graphically (on the map) represents the Company’s epic journey a bit better than mine, climbing up the mountain range to get to the little door, and so feels more dramatic (even the waiting!). If we somehow decide your version is not viable, I did notice that we could accomplish almost the same thing with MY old version by adding Joe: “Playable on a company at Minas Tirith. The company must move to (or stay at) Barad-dur this turn [site path]. At the beginning of your m/h, the company faces…” that would work, right?

>>We could move the attacks to beginning site phase at B-dur, I don't see what the difference is between facing the attacks after the hazards or before, it will usually only get harder. In fact, opponent has more time now to slab some more nazguls on the table.
This is actually more or less like the original Wink

Presently, I’m against moving the attacks to the site phase. I just like the idea of them occurring during the m/h, but also because it’s possible that they can be enhanced this way (such as attacking with the Nazgul perms then tapping them too, or enhancing the Nazgul attacks themselves, or the Orcs/Trolls). Also, the hazard player can always play Nazgul events in response to Morannon’s passive condition of creating attacks. Is there any other reason to keep them during the site phase?

>>How and when you get from Minas Tirith to Cirith Gorgor doesn't matter, only that you get there. Also you can play Scroll at Cirith Gorgor and test there and then still move to B-dur for the challenge, so you can use the ring against the attacks without suffering possible ring-hazards. If you move to B-dur and don't score the ring, you still have to face the attacks each turn.

Good points, and this works for me.

>Also it would be fair if there were a mirrored option for the dunk player to invoke an attack by Sauron if the Morannon player has The One in play, prematurely so to speak, because that won't happen often, normally you score the One and then immediately challenge Sauron. This of course can easily be fixed to let the ringbearer face an attack by Sauron, whether at any site in Udun/Gorgoroth. If opponent fails, you should neither get points, because in effect you've helped cover the world in darkness. But if opponent becomes the new Ringlord, should you get equal points then? your mission at Mount Doom has failed after all? Unless you were the decoy and the Morannon comp. actually was out to become the new lord. Tolkien would shiver in his grave. Wink

Let me hold off on answering this one, because I’ve been typing my response for **two hours** already. Remind us to revisit it later.

Do you get one site phase for each company, or one site phase for each site? It’s a crucial difference because if opponent plays a River or something that lets you do nothing during the site phase, then you “site hop,” that means you are automatically immune to such hazard effects at your second site (like with Farmer Maggot), and we don’t even need the clause “ignore effects preventing…” But perhaps you simply get one site phase for each company.

Let’s delete “this card only untaps if company is not at a site in Udun or Gorgoroth.” Why should you be allowed to run away? Sauron set a trap after all, and this was supposed to be a heroic last stand. If you really want to leave, split your company, and leave someone(s) with Morannon behind. Saves words too.

>>(Mine)
Playable on a company at Minas Tirith. Company may move to Cirith Gorgor via Dagorlad. Tap this card when Aragorn II, Boromir II, Denethor II, Faramir, Galadriel or Saruman in this company is moving to Cirith Gorgor. If tapped, each movement/hazard phase the company faces the following attacks: Orcs 5@10, Trolls 3@12, Men 1@13, and attacks from each Nazgul permanent-event in play. During the site phase at Cirith Gorgor, ignore effects forcing the company to do nothing, and after entering, you may replace site with Barad-dur. If an aforementioned character is at Barad-dur bearing The One Ring and Morannon is tapped, at the end of the site phase s/he faces an attack alone: Maia 1@24. If attack is defeated, bearer makes a corruption check: if successful, you win. Otherwise you lose.

131 words. That’s slightly shorter (seven words) than the original Morannon (V)!

Whew! Am I done? I just took almost THREE HOURS to answer this, and it’s 12 double-spaced pages in Microsoft Word! And I have to work tomorrow!
--Frodo

Well, your dedication to the project is legendary Frodo, and you will be payed for this in golden kuddos, mark my words. I only hope this longest post ever doesn't scare anyone out of commenting, because it would be really nice to receive, if not detailed comments, just some (dis)approval about the basic idea of a forced draw or joined loss.

I will keep it short until then, mainly because you've covered most things, and not to draw too much on others.

@Morannon.
1 I think both options of attacks during mh phase or site phase have their advantages and disadvantages. You say you can play hazards on the attacks of this card. Are you sure about that? Don't the card's attacks have to be resolved without interference of other cards? However may be, I think attacks in mh phase is fine, I only mentioned site phase because I wanted to be sure the guys would actually be at the Morannon (the first time) to do the challenge. In your version they might not arrive there, and stil the card is tapped and the attacks follow.

2 I think it's one site phase when hopping. There may also be cards played not on the site (lost in FD) that force comp to do nothing, so I suppose the clause is still needed.

3 You want comp. to face attacks wherever they are, even should they run off to Rivendell? I think it's strange, but ok, if that saves space. Would attacks not be cancelled at a haven though? If so, that's really no good, the comp. must face attacks as long as this card is tapped, otherwise with Sudden Call it'll be a free insurence against a dunker. btw single Galadriel/Snaga companies do worry me a bit in this respect.
btw. should only the Morannon comp. face the attacks, or any company at a site with tapped Morannon. Because if comp. moves to let's say Death Marshes, and opponent is there, would Sauron spare him?

@Sudden Call
1 You deliberately chose the name Sudden Call over Cracks? because I really think Cracks is more thematic, both in title and in picture. Ringwraiths have little to do with it, and it's not a minion who plays this card.

2 I made it beginning of site phase exactly for the reason you stipulate: to not respond with Cracks/GF. I don't understand why the beginning of site phase should be unorthodox. Site phase begins after facing auto, right? Before facing autos nothing can be played, and if opponent declares he doesn't want to play anything after, why should you not have the right to play something before he declares it's the end? Either way, your treatise on the timing issue was insightful, and I suppose the play Sudden Call in response to Cracks would work also, if only for the clever player but that's your own responsibility. You can never be sure opponent is ready for the dunk though, so it's a gamble for your part as well. This card is just so great!
So any time during site phase is ok with me. The deliberate blowing of ringrolls hadn't occured to me. I think a dunk player will not be likely to do this, unless the Morannon player is in a really really bad shape (or out of resentment).

3 I don't really understand your worry of Sudden Call in site phase being too fast. You mean if played as resource? I suppose it's safe to say Morannon plays slower than dunking, if done with actual intention of winnig by Morannon that is. Of course you can play and tap Morannon by turn 3 (or if Bridging even by turn 2, or FW player even turn 1), but that would mean you really have no rings yet. All this does is let the Morannon player sweat for a few turns with the big attacks. Only worries I have in this respect is an almost undefeatable comp., like Galadriel with nenya, or Snaga V. If someone wants to play Morannon just as insurance, he'll have to invest big. And Sudden Call will have to be in deck too. And is it really favourable against a dunker, is it worth the investment genrally speaking?
If played as resource, the dunk player has little to gain if he plays it too fast, unless for example his wizard is killed or Morannon player plays Scroll in turn 1. Then again, the Morannon player at least in my version had the option to retreat if he'd see that happening, and Morannon would untap...

4 I like the idea of Sauron attacking at Mount Doom also, or moving the Morannon attacks there, if the comp is squatting too long. But that involves making Sudden Call a perm. I suppose, or playable during org. phase at Mount Doom or something. It all makes it very complicated, and there were some complaints it already is all too complicated.
I was thinking about a possible Gollum attack, like "if Gollum is at Mount Doom or not in play, you may reveal My Precious if not yet revealed. Any face up My Precious attacks the company regardless of status and whereabouts." It's schizofrenia after all. It wouldn't matter if opponent flipped Precious before you did then, and this would be the last resort for evil in middle earth. But of course, the player of Sudden Call would not want the ring actually discarded, so even here the point could be moot.

WTF!!!! can any of you guys sum up quickly all of that looooooooooooooong texts?

I only mentioned site phase because I wanted to be sure the guys would actually be at the Morannon (the first time) to do the challenge. In your version they might not arrive there, and stil the card is tapped and the attacks follow.

3 You want comp. to face attacks wherever they are, even should they run off to Rivendell? I think it's strange, but ok, if that saves space.

Yikes, Thorsten, I made two big errors: I only wanted the attacks to happen if the company gets to the Morrannon (Cirith Gorgor), and I didn't want the company to be able to move away! I'll have to look at this again--unless you can think of a **Really Efficient** way to word this yourself.

I suppose if it was absolutely necessary, wording-wise, it's not a terrible option to allow the company to move away, it's just that the idea of "one last stand" seems more epic. But then it would be better if Sauron chased him, yet that might create too much drama if the opponent was simply trying to drag Sauron's forces to wherever the opponent's company was (because you're right, Sauron wouldn't ignore the opponent's companies there).

I'll respond to the rest later...

Frodo

Well Marcos, in a nutshell, the idea is to not make Morannon a one turn effort like it is now, but to let the company 'wait' at Cirith Gorgor to make the final stand, so that the option is created that you can work together with a dunk player (against his will or not) at Mount Doom and force a draw, or lose both, via Sudden Call.
But, there are some issues involved of course . Here's where we are, more or less.

Morannon V:

Playable on a company at Minas Tirith. Company may move to Cirith Gorgor via Dagorlad. Tap this card when Aragorn II, Boromir II, Denethor II, Faramir, Galadriel or Saruman in this company is moving to Cirith Gorgor. If tapped, company may not move outside Dagorlad or Gorgoroth, and each movement/hazard phase the company faces the following attacks: Orcs 5@10, Trolls 3@12, Men 1@13, and attacks from each Nazgul permanent-event in play. During the site phase at Cirith Gorgor after entering the site, you may replace site with Barad-dur (ignore effects forcing the company to do nothing). If an aforementioned character is at Barad-dur bearing The One Ring and Morannon is tapped, at the end of the site phase s/he faces an attack alone: Maia 1@24. If attack is defeated, bearer makes a corruption check: if successful, you win. Otherwise you lose.

Sudden Call/Cracks o' Doom:

Playable on a company at Mount Doom. As resource playable if opponent has a tapped Morannon V in play. Also playable as a hazard at any time, if you have a tapped Morannon V in play. Discard this card if company doesn't bear a gold-ring item, or if The One Ring is in play but not at Mount Doom. If not in play, the player of this card must replace a gold ring item in the company with The One Ring as if tested. The bearer of The One Ring makes a corruption check modified by -3: if succesful, both players have a draw, otherwise, both players lose. Both players may play resources in support on corruption check.

@Frodo. Simply added to Morannon: company can't move outside Dagorlad or Gorgoroth. Hopefully this is clear enough? I suppose this has no effect on the movement the turn they move to Cirith Gorgor? If only there was unlimited room, I would add: may not move outside Dagorlad/Gorgoroth unless by Eagle Mounts

Also, made Sudden Call playable at any time as hazard. Company still has to be at Mount Doom, so it doesn't affect the dunker on his turn to Mount Doom, but once he gets there, he can be hit with it always, so he must be able to respond with Cracks/Gollum's Fate. If he goes to Doom without the One, he can be in danger of having to share the glory. Of course he can bluff and go there hoping to share the glory
Can it be played at some phase where resource player can't respond, like end of turn? I guess not.

Also added modification to CC to make it more dramatic and to up the chances both players lose, so you don't play this lightly hoping opponent will get you out of it. Also original Cracks has a cc modification of course.

why make a special difficulty for dunking decks....
isn't it already hard enough to dunk the ring????

Being able to just replace a Gold Ring Item with the One Ring and force a draw may be cool, but I have my doubts on that.

I don't like the idea of yet another way for people to not test until they're at Mount Doom, in all honesty, even if initiated by the opponent. We should be looking for ways to encourage people to test earlier.

I don't think the proposed Sudden Call/Cracks of Doom are in keeping with gameplay, the thematics of trying to take the One Ring to Mount Doom (by bypassing the necessity of actually taking the One Ring to Mount Doom), or, indeed, player satisfaction -- a forced draw is an ultimately disappointing resolution to the game.

Well, since you can only avoid a draw by playing Cracks/Gollum's Fate in response to Sudden Call, you are actually incouraged to arrive at Mount Doom with the One already in the company. If you wait until Doom, you might get a draw forced, or worse, if you wait even longer your opponent might go ahead with Morannon. In fact, whoever gets the One out fastest has more chances of winning.

This is not just any forced draw on a dunk player, it is a competition for glory between a Morannon player and dunk player, and they may both benefit and lose out on Sudden call, depending on the situation of the game. The funny thing is that it's a tricky business judging who's ahead and thus who feels he needs to catch up by playing it.
You feel it's disappointing resolution to the game? Well, it's ultimately thematic: Aragorn/Gandalf and Frodo defeated Sauron together, so both deserved praise. And what is the game about?: showing that you are better at fighting evil(good) than your opponent. Not all games are decided, a draw is also possible now, I would rather have this than a draw on mp's. It would be cooler perhaps if both would win, but that's not possible, because people might fix their game.

You guys know that there is a permanent event that forbiddes testing at mount doom....!!!

In the hearth of his realm:
which does something like that:
This cards forbids character moving in gorgoroth or a dark domain.
or in gorgoroth or a dark domain....
may neither use their sage skill or spells....


So this means if i play against a ring deck that test at mount doom....
I drop this card as a hazard... and voila.... their attemp fails...!!!
because there is no card to test it they can play!!!


So there is already a card to stop the testing at mount doom thing.... so please tell me where the problem is???

Both Morannon and Sudden Call are not about fixing any problem, whether testing at Doom or otherwise, where did you get that idea?

btw. In the Heart of his Realm is a hazard perm and thus can only be played during mh phase and it can be marvelled, so it's not a great obstacle for testing at Doom, but it is useful yes.

No it can't be marveled... at least not by the company at móunt doom itself!!!