Council of Elrond

Hi all, here's a simpler way to do the vote.

Best

no doubling here

Looks good... of course, since some of us would prefer *any* bonus over no bonuses, we'll have to look at the total amount of people who voted for bonuses when computing results.

Frodo

yeah.... I see...
manipulating the vote in your favour frodo.... I should have seen that comming...*G*
(no just joking...)

maybe it should be clarified, like I said in the other thread, that trophy bonus for prowess doesn't mean/need doubling at all: 1 mp=+1 prowess. I know this is not according to the trophy rule, but 'double prowess only' needs a V clarification as well (or line on the card), so no difference there. People voting for 'not doubling' might prefer only prowess but might not understand how that would work.
it's just that I can't understand why anybody would feel Lego/Gimli should need extra DI...

because I think this is some special rule that would not be necassary...!

it's just that I can't understand why anybody would feel Lego/Gimli should need extra DI...

You mean balance-wise (from the point of view of the hazard player), or utility-wise (from the POV of the Legolas-Gimli player)?

Utility-wise, DI helps them: 1) get factions 2) get a second small (2-3 mind) character under them 3) ultimately control each other.

Are all voting results in?

Frodo

I have just entered my 'no doubling' vote

lol, well I guess one could say we're at an impasse here. I think we should go with the no bonus option given it's 4 votes, although I did vote for the double prowess. It's a nice option regardless and the fact it encompasses minion characters is an additional bonus.

Well I said that because if you don't double and use the normal trophy rule, the first mp you gain will be for DI, and you sacrifice a possible 2 prowess bonus for 2 DI. Of course extra DI can be useful, but in the spirit of this card, and probably in the strategy you'd want to use it, who would like 2 extra DI over 2 extra prowess, especially since the DI comes first? And even worse for the idea behind this card, since it would take ages for both of them to gain some substantial prowess. So I can't understand that.

Thorsten, I think I'm misunderstanding something in what you're saying. Just to make sure we're clear about the bonuses if you doubled them, let me make a chart:

CHART FOR WHAT TROPHY BONUSES WOULD LOOK LIKE IF DOUBLED:

1MP Kill points on Lego or Gimli: He gets +2 DI
2 MP: He gets +2 DI, +2 prow
3 mp: +4 DI, +2 prow
4 mp: +4 DI, +4 prow

I'm not sure what you mean by "who would want DI over prowess"; I agree with that assertion for the most part, but according to the chart above, you would never be giving up prowess by taking the "doubling" route. In fact, you never lose anything by doubling the normal trophy bonuses; you only gain. Unless you were simply arguing that the MPs themselves should be doubled when calculating bonuses... which would indeed make a person get prowess bonuses faster (with the first MP) although they would cap out at a lower number (max +2).

Has anyone played with these characters besides me? I don't mind eliminating the doubling bonus, but it would be nice if the non-bonus trophy text would be playtested by others who could then speak more directly to whether it was too weak, too powerful, or fine.

Frodo

yeah... but as we see. Not even We all understand the trophy doubling...
how should all the other players get it right....???

thats the main reason why I voted for not doubling... because it would make confusement...!

I don't think it would be confusing, well, not relative to MeCCG rules in general!

Still, maybe we should play a few games using this bonus before finally making a decision, particularly as the vote was so close?

I said: people who think that doubling is too strong (like myself), might still think doubling is in order for prowess only. Because, if you don't double, you effectively choose DI over prowess. And that I can't understand. Hence I don't understand why people would vote for 'don't double.'

if you don't double this would be the stat:
1st MP creature killed: +1 DI for Lego
2nd MP creature killed: +1 DI for Gimli
3 MP: +1 DI +1 prowess for Lego (+1 DI for Gimli)
4 MP: +1 DI +1 prowess for Gimli
5 MP : +2 DI +1 prowess for Lego

etc. Lego and Gimli are interchangable here of course.
So, you'd need 4 creature mp's to gain 1 prowess for both, and 8 mp's to gain 2 prowess for both!! Most of your trophies will only grant you DI (you'd get to 2 sooner than to 4). So basically Gimli and Lego are competing for DI. What the heck will you do with the + DI anyway? Is it needed? It's like for minions: it's nice, but often the +1 DI can't be used effectively (because you didn't plan on it)

I agree that prowess bonus doubling isn't exactly clear. Will it mean?:
1 or 2 mp: same
3 MP: +2 prowess +1 DI for Lego
4 MP: +2 prowess +1 DI for Gimli
7 MP: +4 prowess +2 DI for Lego

I would rather have a 'simple' construction whereby:
1 MP: +1 prowess for Lego
2 MP: +1 prowess for Gimli
3 MP: +2 prowess for Lego
etc. Hence skip the DI bonus altogether. I can live with +4 prowess for the guys, even though it's much, but I can't agree with +4 prowess and DI

If Legolas or Gimli are forced to receive a strike due to having a lower number of trophy MPs, and the other character still receives a strike, then isn't it the case that you could still give the trophy to either character? As far as I'm aware the trophy doesn't necessarily have to be awarded to the character with the lower number of MPs (as long as both are still receiving strikes).

I think it gets more complicated when you try to change the way the bonuses work and are awarded. Either we double one or both or we don't. Let's not try to detail special trophy rules on Legolas - it could get lengthy.

Joe, as the votes were tied for doubling something or not doubling, can you, as design lead, just make a decision that we can adopt. Decision should only be between not doubling and doubling prowess.