I've been thinkin that some avatars will be underpowered during faction battle, FWs for example... So i got a nice idea but it needs much work.
Bassically, i thought about adding some new kind of points called "battle points" or "war points" or something, pretty much like stage points, so the idea was that a player can only initiate battle against an opponent with a certain amount of "battle points"
maybe some new virtualized cards can add or substratc that points, like boromir, horn of anor, trouble on all borders, gothmog, rogrog, etc...
this idea needs TONS of work, but might be doable... Any thoughts?
Regarding VC2 and faction wars
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Nerdmeetsyou
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:30 pm
I definitly DONT like the idear of changing the game so drasticaly...
the game was and is about characters... traveling in middlle earth...
not factions trying to battle...
If you think factions are too boring... maybe we can find some other interessing way of giving them more potential... but batteling is the wrong way i think...
the game was and is about characters... traveling in middlle earth...
not factions trying to battle...
If you think factions are too boring... maybe we can find some other interessing way of giving them more potential... but batteling is the wrong way i think...
well, the team at first instance had the idea of Faction wars for VC1 but after some playtesting it ended being unbalanced and so it was decided to rethink about it and left it for some following set... I'm giving a possible idea for that new thematic.
I don't like it too much, but if it is well made it can be kinda funny and i think it is worth the try.
I don't like it too much, but if it is well made it can be kinda funny and i think it is worth the try.
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Nerdmeetsyou
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:30 pm
maybe you save it for some kind of scenario game....
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Bandobras Took
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 3109
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm
I am a huge fan of having factions battle; large-scale armed conflict is an integral part of Lord of the Rings and should not be absent from the game. Indeed, I always saw the Region Cards as being a wonderful way to handle faction movement.
I believe the ideas behind Grond/Alliance are sound, but that the concept requires enough support cards as to be virtually worthy of its own expansion. However, on my 15-minute break, I'll try post the groundwork of what I see happening and add more later:
Alliance of the Free Peoples:
All factions have their locations represented by Region Cards. Factions come into play at the Region containing the site where they were played. Your Elf, Dwarf, Man, Dunadan, and Hobbit Factions may move during your organization phase. A faction may move a maximum of 3 regions. Any of your factions in the same region as opposing minion/stage factions during the site phase may choose to battle -- roll the dice and add the MPs of all of your factions so choosing; your opponent rolls the dice and adds the MPs of his minion/stage factions at the region. The player with the lower total must wound one of his factions; this faction gives only half its normal MPs, rounded up. May not be played by a Fallen Wizard.
Grond:
All factions have their locations represented by Region Cards. Factions come into play at the Region containing the site where they were played. Your Orc, Troll, Man, Dunadan, and Wolf Factions not played with a Leader may move during your organization phase. A faction may move a maximum of 3 regions. Any of your factions in the same region as opposing hero/stage factions during the site phase may choose to battle -- roll the dice and add the MPs of all of your factions so choosing; your opponent rolls the dice and adds the MPs of his hero/stage factions at the region. The player with the lower total must wound one of his factions; this faction gives only half its normal MPs, rounded up. May not be played by a Fallen Wizard.
War-Forges:
All factions have their locations represented by Region Cards. Factions come into play at the Region containing the site where they were played. Your non-Dragon, non-Special factions not played with a Leader may move during your organization phase. A faction may move a maximum of 3 regions. Any of your factions in the same region as any opposing factions during the site phase may choose to battle -- roll the dice and add the MPs of all of your factions so choosing; your opponent rolls the dice and adds the MPs of his factions at the region. The player with the lower total must wound one of his factions; this faction gives only half its normal MPs, rounded up.
These allow for basic but not overpowered faction battling and allow to stick Virtual texts on the factions that might need them -- Army of the Dead, Dragons, Ents, Eagles, etc. Such might be:
Army of the Dead:
Playable yadda yadda. May move if Alliance of the Free People is in play. May elect during a faction battle to remove an opposing faction from play (your choice). After any battle in which the Army of the Dead participates, it is placed in your marshalling point pile and may not move or attack again.
Earcaraxe Roused:
If Grond is in play, any faction moving through these regions (where Earcaraxe attacks companies) automatically faces a faction battle -- Earcaraxe's MP total is considered 8 for this purpose.
Ents of Fangorn:
If Alliance of the Free Peoples is in play, may move to the Gap of Isen, Wold & Foothills, or Redhorn Gate. +2 Effective MPs when battling against Orc or Troll Factions.
The Great Eagles:
If Alliance of the Free Peoples is in play, may move with no maximum region limit.
Scorba Roused:
If Grond is in play, ignore all attacks against any company from any manifestation of Scorba. Scorba may move with no maximum region limit.
As I mentioned in arguing for the delay of Grond/Alliance, various helper cards are needed, including some synergy with character, some defensive cards (thanks to Jambo for the idea of auto-sideboarding), and virtualizing cards like Long Grievous Siege/Siege.
Here are a few of those:
Refuge:
May be shuffled into your play deck from the sideboard if any player's Virtual Grond/Alliance of the Free Peoples/War-Forges is in play. Your factions may move to the region containing the nearest haven of the site where the faction may be played during your organization phase. Any of your factions at Lindon, Rhudaur, Wold & Foothills, or Anfalas may not be attacked by opposing factions. May not be played by a Fallen Wizard.
Going Ever Under Dark:
May be shuffled into your play deck from the sideboard if any player's Virtual Grond/Alliance of the Free Peoples/War-Forges is in play. Any of your factions which may move and are in a region containing the surface sit of an underdeeps site may use this turn's movement to move to that under-deeps site. These factions continue to give their MPs. May not be played by Fallen Wizards.
Fortress of the Isen:
Isengard is protected yadda yadda. If any player's V-G/A/WF is in play, your factions in the Gap of Isen double their MP value for the purposes of factions Battles.
These cards would allow the non-dedicated faction combat decks to stand a chance against dedicated combat decks by providing defensive Safe-Holes.
Boromir II:
All of your factions at the region containing Boromir's current site receive a bonus to their faction battle total equal Boromir's current DI against Factions.
A few of the less used characters/avatars could benefit by boosting factions in such a manner.
Anyway, I'm out of break time. I'll ramble more later.
I believe the ideas behind Grond/Alliance are sound, but that the concept requires enough support cards as to be virtually worthy of its own expansion. However, on my 15-minute break, I'll try post the groundwork of what I see happening and add more later:
Alliance of the Free Peoples:
All factions have their locations represented by Region Cards. Factions come into play at the Region containing the site where they were played. Your Elf, Dwarf, Man, Dunadan, and Hobbit Factions may move during your organization phase. A faction may move a maximum of 3 regions. Any of your factions in the same region as opposing minion/stage factions during the site phase may choose to battle -- roll the dice and add the MPs of all of your factions so choosing; your opponent rolls the dice and adds the MPs of his minion/stage factions at the region. The player with the lower total must wound one of his factions; this faction gives only half its normal MPs, rounded up. May not be played by a Fallen Wizard.
Grond:
All factions have their locations represented by Region Cards. Factions come into play at the Region containing the site where they were played. Your Orc, Troll, Man, Dunadan, and Wolf Factions not played with a Leader may move during your organization phase. A faction may move a maximum of 3 regions. Any of your factions in the same region as opposing hero/stage factions during the site phase may choose to battle -- roll the dice and add the MPs of all of your factions so choosing; your opponent rolls the dice and adds the MPs of his hero/stage factions at the region. The player with the lower total must wound one of his factions; this faction gives only half its normal MPs, rounded up. May not be played by a Fallen Wizard.
War-Forges:
All factions have their locations represented by Region Cards. Factions come into play at the Region containing the site where they were played. Your non-Dragon, non-Special factions not played with a Leader may move during your organization phase. A faction may move a maximum of 3 regions. Any of your factions in the same region as any opposing factions during the site phase may choose to battle -- roll the dice and add the MPs of all of your factions so choosing; your opponent rolls the dice and adds the MPs of his factions at the region. The player with the lower total must wound one of his factions; this faction gives only half its normal MPs, rounded up.
These allow for basic but not overpowered faction battling and allow to stick Virtual texts on the factions that might need them -- Army of the Dead, Dragons, Ents, Eagles, etc. Such might be:
Army of the Dead:
Playable yadda yadda. May move if Alliance of the Free People is in play. May elect during a faction battle to remove an opposing faction from play (your choice). After any battle in which the Army of the Dead participates, it is placed in your marshalling point pile and may not move or attack again.
Earcaraxe Roused:
If Grond is in play, any faction moving through these regions (where Earcaraxe attacks companies) automatically faces a faction battle -- Earcaraxe's MP total is considered 8 for this purpose.
Ents of Fangorn:
If Alliance of the Free Peoples is in play, may move to the Gap of Isen, Wold & Foothills, or Redhorn Gate. +2 Effective MPs when battling against Orc or Troll Factions.
The Great Eagles:
If Alliance of the Free Peoples is in play, may move with no maximum region limit.
Scorba Roused:
If Grond is in play, ignore all attacks against any company from any manifestation of Scorba. Scorba may move with no maximum region limit.
As I mentioned in arguing for the delay of Grond/Alliance, various helper cards are needed, including some synergy with character, some defensive cards (thanks to Jambo for the idea of auto-sideboarding), and virtualizing cards like Long Grievous Siege/Siege.
Here are a few of those:
Refuge:
May be shuffled into your play deck from the sideboard if any player's Virtual Grond/Alliance of the Free Peoples/War-Forges is in play. Your factions may move to the region containing the nearest haven of the site where the faction may be played during your organization phase. Any of your factions at Lindon, Rhudaur, Wold & Foothills, or Anfalas may not be attacked by opposing factions. May not be played by a Fallen Wizard.
Going Ever Under Dark:
May be shuffled into your play deck from the sideboard if any player's Virtual Grond/Alliance of the Free Peoples/War-Forges is in play. Any of your factions which may move and are in a region containing the surface sit of an underdeeps site may use this turn's movement to move to that under-deeps site. These factions continue to give their MPs. May not be played by Fallen Wizards.
Fortress of the Isen:
Isengard is protected yadda yadda. If any player's V-G/A/WF is in play, your factions in the Gap of Isen double their MP value for the purposes of factions Battles.
These cards would allow the non-dedicated faction combat decks to stand a chance against dedicated combat decks by providing defensive Safe-Holes.
Boromir II:
All of your factions at the region containing Boromir's current site receive a bonus to their faction battle total equal Boromir's current DI against Factions.
A few of the less used characters/avatars could benefit by boosting factions in such a manner.
Anyway, I'm out of break time. I'll ramble more later.
Last edited by Bandobras Took on Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bandobras Took
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 3109
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm
That is why an entire set is necessary. No one card is sufficient to balance everything. Difficult? Yes. Worth it? Also yes.
FWs won't necessarily have a problem. Pallando and Gandalf can both have 3 MP factions running around, while Alatar gets 4 from Dragon Factions and boosts elf factions (I think).
That leaves Radagast and Saruman.
Fallen Radagast could use a little weakening.
The Forge-Master:
Playable On A Non-Hobbit Sage or a Dwarf. Yadda yadda. If V A/G/WF is in play, target character may tap to heal a faction. All of your factions gain 1 MP for the purposes of faction battling.
Since Cup of Farewell completely blows the current Forge-Master out of the water.
Gnawed Ways: Shuffle to deck from sideboard if V A/G/WF is in play. Playable on one of your factions. Target faction may not be attacked.
FWs won't necessarily have a problem. Pallando and Gandalf can both have 3 MP factions running around, while Alatar gets 4 from Dragon Factions and boosts elf factions (I think).
That leaves Radagast and Saruman.
Fallen Radagast could use a little weakening.
The Forge-Master:
Playable On A Non-Hobbit Sage or a Dwarf. Yadda yadda. If V A/G/WF is in play, target character may tap to heal a faction. All of your factions gain 1 MP for the purposes of faction battling.
Since Cup of Farewell completely blows the current Forge-Master out of the water.
Gnawed Ways: Shuffle to deck from sideboard if V A/G/WF is in play. Playable on one of your factions. Target faction may not be attacked.
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Bandobras Took
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 3109
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm
Worth. Since the MPs of a FW faction can only be halved by War-Forges, that seems entirely reasonable. Though War-Forges should say "Half its MPs" rather than "half its normal MPs."
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Bandobras Took
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 3109
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm
One Dear To You:
Short Event. Playable on an opposing faction if Grond is in play. Target faction must move up to three regions to a region of your choice. Target factions gains a +1 bonus to faction combat for the rest of the turn.
Motionless Among the Slain:
Heal one faction.
Into Dark Tunnels:
Permanent Event. If Alliance of the Free Peoples or War-Forges is in play, your Dwarf factions may move to an under-deeps site during any organization phase during which they are in a region containing the under-deeps site's surface site. All Dwarf Factions gain +4 to faction battles when at an Under-Deeps site.
(I just want to see some Dwarf vs. Orc army action.
)
Short Event. Playable on an opposing faction if Grond is in play. Target faction must move up to three regions to a region of your choice. Target factions gains a +1 bonus to faction combat for the rest of the turn.
Motionless Among the Slain:
Heal one faction.
Into Dark Tunnels:
Permanent Event. If Alliance of the Free Peoples or War-Forges is in play, your Dwarf factions may move to an under-deeps site during any organization phase during which they are in a region containing the under-deeps site's surface site. All Dwarf Factions gain +4 to faction battles when at an Under-Deeps site.
(I just want to see some Dwarf vs. Orc army action.
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Bandobras Took
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 3109
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm
All The Bells Ringing:
If any player's V G/A/WF is in play, you may bring this card from the sideboard to your play deck and shuffle. Playable on a faction if the faction is at the region containing a site where the faction is playable. Target Faction may roll twice in a faction battle and choose which result to use. This card may also be played during your opponent's turn.
Lordly Presence:
Diplomat Only if at a site located within the current region of one of your factions. Target faction doubles their MP value for the purposes of Faction Battles.
Tribal Totem:
Unique. The next faction to be wounded by faction battling is instead elminated (removed from play). Remove this card from play when such a faction is removed from play.
Tribal Banner:
All Orc and Troll factions gain +2 MPs for the purposes of one faction battle. After the battle, all Orc and Troll factions involved in the battle must return to their home regions. May also be played as a resource, and may be played at any time.
Itangast Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond is in play, ignore all attacks from any manifestation of Itangast. Any opposing faction moving in the Withered Heath is automatically eliminated (removed from play).
Smaug Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond is in play, all factions receive -1 MP (no minimum) for the purpose of faction battles).
Scatha Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond or War-Forges is in play, tap this card to allow another faction to move an extra region when they move.
Leucaruth Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond is in play, tap this card to heal any of your factions in the Withered Heath, Grey Mountain Narrows, or Northern Rhovanion.
Daelomin Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond is in play, ignore all attacks by manifestations of Daelomin. Daelomin may move during your organization phase to a maximum of two regions. Daelomin receives +3 to his faction battle MPs during any opponent's turn.
Agburanar Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond is in play, Agburanar may move to a maximum of three regions. Agburnar receives +2 to his faction battle MPs during your turn and -2 during any of your opponent's turns.
Bairanax Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond or War-Forges is in play, each of your Dragon, Animal, and/or Special Factions receives +1 to their faction battle MPs.
No Way Forward:
Normal text, and add: If Grond and Gates of Morning are in play, all minion factions may move one less region (no minimum). If Alliance and Doors of Night are in play, all hero factions may move one less region (no minimum). Stage resource factions are unaffected.
If any player's V G/A/WF is in play, you may bring this card from the sideboard to your play deck and shuffle. Playable on a faction if the faction is at the region containing a site where the faction is playable. Target Faction may roll twice in a faction battle and choose which result to use. This card may also be played during your opponent's turn.
Lordly Presence:
Diplomat Only if at a site located within the current region of one of your factions. Target faction doubles their MP value for the purposes of Faction Battles.
Tribal Totem:
Unique. The next faction to be wounded by faction battling is instead elminated (removed from play). Remove this card from play when such a faction is removed from play.
Tribal Banner:
All Orc and Troll factions gain +2 MPs for the purposes of one faction battle. After the battle, all Orc and Troll factions involved in the battle must return to their home regions. May also be played as a resource, and may be played at any time.
Itangast Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond is in play, ignore all attacks from any manifestation of Itangast. Any opposing faction moving in the Withered Heath is automatically eliminated (removed from play).
Smaug Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond is in play, all factions receive -1 MP (no minimum) for the purpose of faction battles).
Scatha Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond or War-Forges is in play, tap this card to allow another faction to move an extra region when they move.
Leucaruth Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond is in play, tap this card to heal any of your factions in the Withered Heath, Grey Mountain Narrows, or Northern Rhovanion.
Daelomin Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond is in play, ignore all attacks by manifestations of Daelomin. Daelomin may move during your organization phase to a maximum of two regions. Daelomin receives +3 to his faction battle MPs during any opponent's turn.
Agburanar Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond is in play, Agburanar may move to a maximum of three regions. Agburnar receives +2 to his faction battle MPs during your turn and -2 during any of your opponent's turns.
Bairanax Roused:
Yadda yadda. If Grond or War-Forges is in play, each of your Dragon, Animal, and/or Special Factions receives +1 to their faction battle MPs.
No Way Forward:
Normal text, and add: If Grond and Gates of Morning are in play, all minion factions may move one less region (no minimum). If Alliance and Doors of Night are in play, all hero factions may move one less region (no minimum). Stage resource factions are unaffected.
I remain ever cautious on faction and avatar battling becoming part of VCs, and it's not because I don't think these could work or indeed would be really good fun, rather it's because I believe that introducing such a major change to the game's concept would alienate VCs.
To me, I always hope that I could log onto GCCG and play VCs against players that are simply using vanilla cards. Introducing major concept changes would most likely remove this possibility, unless of course it was made clear at the start of the game that these cards weren't being used.
To me, I always hope that I could log onto GCCG and play VCs against players that are simply using vanilla cards. Introducing major concept changes would most likely remove this possibility, unless of course it was made clear at the start of the game that these cards weren't being used.
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Thorsten the Traveller
- Ex Council Chairman
- Posts: 1764
- Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:44 pm
- Location: Tilburg, Netherlands
I'd have to agree with this. Truth be told I haven't really dug into the matter of faction battles, but it seems like something you could not avoid dealing with in any type of game, you have to Enter the Fray and battle along, and I don't like it if opponent can thus decide the course of the game, and even the whole meta-game is changed.
Same for avatar battling, which I did oppose to a year ago in the stronger version (you were literally forced to pack loads of spells), but maybe this can be toned down and actually used.
Same for avatar battling, which I did oppose to a year ago in the stronger version (you were literally forced to pack loads of spells), but maybe this can be toned down and actually used.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
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Nerdmeetsyou
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:30 pm
yeah jambo and torsten are fully right...
a lot of people would reject V-Cards if we would make such a major change...
we shouldn't make this cards just for US but for all ME players... to bring much mor enjoyment to their game...
I think the avatar battling could be done in some way... but it should be kept a minor theme...
like a card that allows it but doesn't require you to play some cards against it if you are the opponent....
for example just some card that allows you to engage another avatar in a company vs company battle where no other chars interact... where one of them is taken prisoner afterwards...
or some other things....
Here are some suggestions from me... how to integrate Factions MORE without introducing to much game difficultiy and alianation:
For example a card that may be played on a playd faction... where all opponents companies who move through the region where the faction is playable and regions next to it when gates of morning in play. must face a detainment attack with the factions masheling +2W6.
(Maybe then you could introduce a card that allows your own faction to move if the card above mentioned was played on it... or something like that....)
Or here some other idear....
maybe a card that allows to play a faction under one of your warrior... to implicate that he is taking thoes guys with him...
And they now face the first attack each turn. To implicate that your company is somehow prevented by them????
a lot of people would reject V-Cards if we would make such a major change...
we shouldn't make this cards just for US but for all ME players... to bring much mor enjoyment to their game...
I think the avatar battling could be done in some way... but it should be kept a minor theme...
like a card that allows it but doesn't require you to play some cards against it if you are the opponent....
for example just some card that allows you to engage another avatar in a company vs company battle where no other chars interact... where one of them is taken prisoner afterwards...
or some other things....
Here are some suggestions from me... how to integrate Factions MORE without introducing to much game difficultiy and alianation:
For example a card that may be played on a playd faction... where all opponents companies who move through the region where the faction is playable and regions next to it when gates of morning in play. must face a detainment attack with the factions masheling +2W6.
(Maybe then you could introduce a card that allows your own faction to move if the card above mentioned was played on it... or something like that....)
Or here some other idear....
maybe a card that allows to play a faction under one of your warrior... to implicate that he is taking thoes guys with him...
And they now face the first attack each turn. To implicate that your company is somehow prevented by them????