new huorn V

[marcos]

ok, huorn sucks even with the new plant helpers, so i made this new version:

huorn V:
[w][w]
P/B: 10/-
Creature or Short event
Awakened Plant. Playable as a creature (2 attacks of 1 strike each) or as a short-event. As a creature, may also be keyed to Fangorn, Cardolan, Southern Mirkwood and any of its adyacent non-coastal sea regions. One of its attacks cannot be cancelled and the rest can be cancelled by tapping 1 character for each attack. As a short-event, playable on an awakened plant creature in your discard pile. If target creature can attack, bring it into play and attacks immediately the company (not counting against the hazard limit). The attack's prowess is modified by -1.

Basically it represents the "regeneration" skills of the trees, as a creature, by attacking twice, and as an event, by bringing more plants from discard....

thoughts?

Marcos--

[Bandobras Took]

There are no awakened plant cancelers other than Trickery for heroes. Two buffable attacks is very, very strong, but counterbalancing it with a double-wilderness requirement won't make Huorns see any more play. Elf-Lords are already playable keyed to double Wilderness and hit harder with Chill.

I would suggest keeping current Huorn stats (1 at 10, keyability to W), but using this text:

Awakened Plant. One strike. Attacker chooses defending characters. May be played keyed to Heart of Mirkwood, Sothern Mirkwood, Western Mirkwood, Woodland Realm, and Fangorn and may be played keyed to sites in these regions. May also be played at Druadan Forest and Old Forest.

One Wilderness means that it can see more play, the other Awakened Plant buffers make choosing defending characters okay, and the lack of a specific canceler on the minion side will make the Withered Heath more dangerous. I see no need to be recycling Awakened Plants with extra cards; that what Mouth/Uvatha/Outpost are for.

[marcos]

elfs sees lots of play and doesn't have that much cancellers either, at least not for minions, only "not slay needlessly" is the only one but only for covert companies... This huorn attacks are meant to be cancelled with tapping a single character, and i don't think that 1 strike at 10 is too much problem. What about if both attacks can be cancelled by tapping a character per attack?

Do you see any need to recycle elflords with any ohter hazard more than uvatha/mouth/outpost??? Then what are master of the house and returned beyond all hope for?

you only add "Attacker chooses defending characters" to the original text and i think it still isn't worth it.

Joe, jamie, bert, any thoughts?

[marcos]

i suggest this:

huorn V:
[w]
P/B: 10/-
Creature or Short event
Awakened Plant. Playable as a creature (2 attacks of 1 strike each, attacker chooses defending characters) or as a short-event. As a creature, may also be keyed to Fangorn, Cardolan, Southern Mirkwood and any of its adyacent non-coastal sea regions. This creature's attacks can be cancelled by tapping 1 character per attack on the defending company. As a short-event, playable on an awakened plant creature in your discard pile. If target creature can attack, bring it into play and attacks immediately the company (not counting against the hazard limit). The attack's prowess is modified by -1.

Bolds are wich i've modified from the first version

no need for specific cancellers now, and more playability. I will leave it as a creature/short event because it still isn`t as good as a creature as the other 2 plants, so, why not discard him and play a bigger one

thoughts?

[Jambo]

By the way, you should post virtual card suggestions in the main showcase forum. Otherwise, you won't get any comments from people not on the development team.

Regarding the card, if the team and Joe ever decided to endorse an awakened plant enhancer, a boosted huorn might not be necessary. Just a thought.

[marcos]

normal huorn sucks, even with a modifier, it claims for virtualization IMHO

[marcos]

after talking with bert about this, i decided to suggest a new (and hope final) version:

huorn V:
[w]
P/B: 10/-
Creature
Awakened Plant. 2 attacks (of 1 strike each), attacker chooses defending characters. May also be keyed to Fangorn, Cardolan, Southern Mirkwood and any of its adyacent non-coastal sea regions. This creature's attacks can be cancelled by tapping 1 character per attack on the defending company. Any Awakened plant hazard creature can be played on a company that has faced Huorn this turn.

not too strong nor too weak, nice keyability, and a cool hability

hope you like it

[Bandobras Took]

The problem is twofold in regards to balance vs. minion.

1) Anything keyable to double wilderness is automatically going to be compared to Elf-Lord in terms of usefulness; and
2) Anything keyable to a single wilderness should not be too strong to counteract its playability.

As it is, the current version can hit any minion company moving out of Dol Guldur. If we look at Darkness Under Tree/Radagast, were looking at Three Attacks of 12 which can be canceled by tapping out a company every single turn. That's way too strong. Also, with the proposed Nature's Revenge, there's no need to make this a recycling short-event.

For the sake of convenience, we ought perhaps to make a single "Awakened Plant strategy thread" in which all the proposed cards are listed so we can consider how they will interact with each other as a whole.

[marcos]

The problem is twofold in regards to balance vs. minion.

1) Anything keyable to double wilderness is automatically going to be compared to Elf-Lord in terms of usefulness; and
2) Anything keyable to a single wilderness should not be too strong to counteract its playability.

As it is, the current version can hit any minion company moving out of Dol Guldur. If we look at Darkness Under Tree/Radagast, were looking at Three Attacks of 12 which can be canceled by tapping out a company every single turn. That's way too strong. Also, with the proposed Nature's Revenge, there's no need to make this a recycling short-event.

For the sake of convenience, we ought perhaps to make a single "Awakened Plant strategy thread" in which all the proposed cards are listed so we can consider how they will interact with each other as a whole.

darkness under tree -> marvels/voices
recycling short event -> already removed
3 attacks at 12 -> not too hard for a Lt with thong of fire or a snaga V

[Bandobras Took]

And the Carambor/Hendolen/Calendal party?

Overt Minion companies have an easier time with hazard creatures; they're supposed to. We're talking about low-prowess companies being hit be three attacks for which the only possible cancellation method is tapping the characters, whether through the creature's ability or A Nice Place to Hide, etc. With the support cards already suggested for Awakened Plants, the most strengthening that Huorn needs is to choose defending characters. Any more than that, IMO, is sheer overkill.

I would see Awakened Plants becoming a good creature strat when you want quick-playing and reasonably tough creatures. I'd rather not see it become the kind of Haven-hitter for Dol Guldur that Elf-Lord is for Carn Dum/Imlad Morgul.

[marcos]

let's see if i can convince ben with this one :

huorn V:
[w]
P/B: 11/-
Creature
Awakened Plant. One strike, attacker chooses defending characters. May also be keyed to Fangorn, Cardolan, Southern Mirkwood and any of its adyacent non-coastal sea regions. Any Awakened plant hazard creature can be played on a company that has faced Huorn this turn.

one more prowess, one less attack and chooses defending character

what about now?

[Bandobras Took]

That's much more reasonable.

[marcos]

finally!!!

now:

Darkness under tree V:
Long event
All awakened plant recive +2 prowess and 1 extra attack. All attacks from any awakened plant with 13 or less prowess and no body receive +4 body. Cannot be duplicated

i think that might be a good idea to add to this card the phrase "a character can tap cancel one this attacks" since there aren't much awakened plant cancellers

[Bandobras Took]

No objections here.

[Jambo]

Moved the discussion regarding the playability of the huorn in here. The reason I think being able to keyed to certain sites like Old Forest is important is because it can then attack companies squatting there. Yiou could just use the text on the original huorn card?

Here's how the card could be written for instance:

huorn V:
[w]
P/B: 11/-
Creature
Awakened Plant. One strike, attacker chooses defending characters. May also be played at Druadan Forest, Old Forest, and Wellinghall. May also be played keyed to Heart of Mirkwood, Sothern Mirkwood, Western Mirkwood, and Woodland Realm; and may also be played at Ruins & Lairs [R] and Shadow-holds [S] in these regions. Any Awakened plant hazard creature can be played on a company that has faced Huorn this turn.

One question - would additional awakened plants played after the huorn count against the HL?