Council of Elrond

How are we doing team? Any thoughts toward getting this set wrapped up for the March tournament? There's a lot to take in on this thread and we really need to be thinking about those final 7 cards. Can we assume that the following are now definites?

Radagast the Tamer
Darkness Under Tree
Waiting Shadow
In Darkness Bind Them
Shadowfax

If so, myself and Marcos can proceed to make them. Also, I'd like to get resolution on putting TRT up to 3 MPs. Are we all in favour?

This would mean we'd need 2 more. I presume these would be from:

The Great Goblin (but which version?)
Huorn
Words of Power and Terror (Joe's version)
In the Name of Mordor (They Ride Together helper)

I'm less keen on the huorn because it will replace the original version and this was not one of the goals behind VCs. I also think that the extra abilities given to the [v] huorn could be put into one of the other cards, e.g. DUT, and now we have RTT and WS this should be quite a strong strategy.

I'd love to the see The Great Goblin. He was an important figure of the The Hobbit and yet currently sees no playing time in MeCCG. There are now quite a few suggestions and we need to agree on which version if this is to be developed. The capturing one is nice and whilst powerful, I imagine this will quite often see the death of the GG and the awarding of 2 MPs to the person rescuing prisoners. Quite a nice reward and very thematic.

Words of Power and Terror. Really like this card, but should we be concerned of it in Orc/Uruk Lieutenent decks?

Re In the Name of Mordor, the only hazards one will have to combat raising the nine are Nazgul permanent events. Do we want to completely remove this? Maybe the resource player should think about using Uvatha and/or Adunaphel straight up in their deck to avoid this? These are the two most common hazard perms after all. Maybe this card should wait for the next set when we've a better idea of how playing the nine through TRT will work? Marcos has already indicated that the number of cards required to make this work can be a problem, so maybe there's more needed?

Cheers

About the 2 we are missing i vote for:

the great goblin (any version, i like both)
words of power and terror (joe's version)

Re Huorn: Ok, if everyone else is ok that we don't have to include a new huorn, then ok with me... But we can consider any of my suggestions for a future set. I think that we can add "attacker chooses defending character" to waiting shadow, because adding it to DUT will make it a very powerfull card.

Re words of power and terror: i don't think we have to worry about orc lieuys because this strategy is mainly used vs minions, and a nazgul attack vs minion is detain
the only problem i see in a orc lieutenant deck is that a nazgul attack chossing defenders is like pretty much like an auto character tapper, BUT it will take much hazards to hit the company with that nazgul, so IMHO it is balanced and i think we don't have to modify it

Re In the name of mordor: Not sure about this, because a dedicated resource player can still include 3 ancient secrets/ 3 voices/ 3 in the name of mordor (normal) and that can be enough vs a normal deck, but it might fail vs a dedicated nazgul strategy, but hey! not all decks are strong vs all decks! Maybe we should test the TRT deck in march's tourney and if it really needs more helpers, we can include them in set 2

Rr TRT: It is true that the deck needs too many cards to work (i built one and i could only add 2 hazards in sideboard!!!) so i'm in favour of making TRT worth 3 MPs

best!
Marcos

The Great Goblin
Creature or Permanent-event.
MP: 2
P/B: 12/7
1 strike.
Unique
As a permanent event, you may tap The Great Goblin to modify any non-detainment Orc creature attack of normally more than one strike (tapping counts against the hazard limit): Each successful strike does not harm the character, but takes the character prisoner at Goblin Gate or The Under-grottos. The Rescue Attack is this creature's card as though played from your hand. This card does not untap during your untap phase. When tapped, The Great Goblin gives +2 prowess to all Orc creature attacks of normally more than one strike.

Ok, here's another variation of the theme. One which combines capturing and a small prowess for those crappy orc creatures. Initially it is a 1-shot capture card, however, you have to make this capture attempt to then get the prowess boost for those weak orc creature cards.

oh! excellent one!!! congrats Jambo, i think we have the final version

Okay, regarding the Great Goblin. I just checked the two Dark Minions prisoner-taking hazards, and I think there’s something important here we missed. The one that allows the taking of MULTIPLE prisoners happens at the site where the company currently is, so the company does not have to travel very far to attempt a rescue attack. The one that takes only ONE prisoner happens at a different (“closest R and L…”) site, so that company WOULD have to travel. Our Great Goblin at present can capture multiple characters AND it forces the company to journey one, two, or even **three** whole turns (if the Underdeeps is allowed) before the company can hope to retrieve its characters back.

Of course we need to allow the prison-site to be Goblin Gate to be thematic. But to remove what I think is a too-powerful play of the card, I think we should eliminate the underdeeps site as a choice AND limiting the Goblin’s usage to capturing ONE character. If the company chooses not to run all the way to the Gate to face him, he will still be a threat because he can potentially untap and capture other characters on separate turns.

Finally, I like Jambo’s thinking in his current iteration of the card, however this means that even if no one is successfully taken prisoner, orc attacks still get enhanced. AND you can never again tap him to try to capture someone again! Therefore, I suggest this final version, which I think would be very thematic:

The Great Goblin
Creature or Permanent-event.
MP: 2
P/B: 12/7
1 strike.
Unique
As a permanent event, you may tap The Great Goblin to modify any non-detainment Orc creature attack of normally more than one strike (tapping counts against the hazard limit): The first successful strike does not harm the character, but takes the character prisoner at Goblin Gate. If there is a prisoner at Goblin Gate, The Great Goblin gives +2 prowess to all Orc creature attacks of normally more than one strike.

Frodo

your suggestion joe is ok, but i prefer the idea of jamie about:

"When tapped, The Great Goblin gives +2 prowess to all Orc creature attacks of normally more than one strike."

rest is ok IMHO

Okay, Jambo’s right, we need to move quickly. I am okay with the following 5 cards being put in right now:

Radagast the Tamer
Darkness Under Tree
Waiting Shadow
In Darkness Bind Them
Shadowfax

However, see Thorsten’s “Awakened Plants” thread that revisits the concept of these cards and brings them to a new light. We can still move ahead and make the above, but some stuff to consider immediately are:

1) Can’t we substitute any WH uncommon/common hazards for some of these rare Awakened Plants enhancers?
2) Can we possibly add a line to one of the above enhancers allowing Ent keyability wherever there is an Ent ally or faction? This way we can playtest this mechanic.

Jambo, nice thought on simply incorporating Huorn’s text into the already existing AH enhancers. Sure, let’s do it—I guess on the perm event one.

I would also like to see the Words of Power and Terror incorporated now since that enhances a strategy that set VC1 is already focused on: the Nazguls.

TRP up to 3 MPs is fine with me. I am still worried about the huge MP bonus you can then get by simply throwing down three copies of these whenever it comes up in your deck… OHHHH!!! I just thought of a REALLY cool way, an AMAZING way, that you can still get the 9 MP, but if would at least require you to attempt to “use” or “move” your horde of evildoers that you’ve spent all game amassing. If there’s room enough on the card, add to the end: “Only if this card is tapped do you get its MP.” This means that on the turn that the resource player plays the illustrious ninth RW, he must actually MOVE them and utilize TRT’s text that allows them to “move again” by tapping the card. This scores him 3 MP, instantly. THEN, the player can choose to move them once more by tapping another copy of TRT, netting him another 3 MP. And so forth… it offers the hazard player, too, a chance to possibly strip him of these points, because if he can somehow kill/remove one of the unholy nine, then TRT is no longer worth so many points. Btw, Jambo, you can now completely cut the line “this card is worth 2mp” and rewrite it later on so it says “If tapped, this card is worth 2mp”… so that would definitely give it room.

Regarding In the Name of Mordor. I’m really torn on this card. Ben’s resource permanent event version **completely** eliminates the haz-event bottleneck for RWs, yet also makes it so that the hazard player’s other nazgul perms could still get some usage. My version **partially** eliminates the haz-event bottleneck (‘cause you only have 3 of these short-events and you need to draw all of them, you might not have out 2 RW followers for a while), thereby creating more interesting interplay between the haz and res player so they can “fight” a little with their perms, yet my version also **severely** limits the hazard player’s usage of his other nazgul perms. Which is better?? I don’t know. I’m inclined to think my version may be better because it will **still** allow for a fight with the hazard player’s naz perm events, yet not completely cripple the usage of the nazgul perms, if the nazgul perms are used for sideboarding and text-abliities (text-abilities would only work if they are tapped in response to the play of In the Name of Mordor). Marcos is now suggesting that perhaps NO helper is needed (after all, not all players will run a full Nazgul strategy), however, I thought you guys were clamoring about how difficult this deck is to run because of the fight with the haz player’s Nazgul perms? Should we leave out any enhancer for now?

By the way, I mentioned I’m cool with Shadowfax in the set, but if we all agree that we need to playtest SOME version of In the Name of Mordor, then we might consider seeing the Great Goblin over Shadowfax.

Thoughts?

Frodo

marcos wrote:your suggestion joe is ok, but i prefer the idea of jamie about:

"When tapped, The Great Goblin gives +2 prowess to all Orc creature attacks of normally more than one strike."

rest is ok IMHO

Did you want the card to still "never untap"?

If yes, then we run into the problem of not being able to get more than one attempt per game at capturing somebody.

If no, then this means Great Goblin modifies even the first attack... this is okay with me, but it would mean no future attacks would be modified unless he taps again. I guess that could work too. Personally I prefer the "captured" condition for the prowess bonus because it's easier to imagine in story-terms (the orcs of goblin gate have a PRISONER and so orcs everywhere are stirring and excited and proud).

Frodo

but the prowess modifier will be hard to see if only it takes effect when a character is taken prisioner... there are many cancellers vs orcs

Okay, I thought of another way of writing the Great Goblin with the tapping benefit still intact:


The Great Goblin
Creature or Permanent-event.
MP: 2
P/B: 12/7
1 strike.
Unique
As a permanent event, you may tap The Great Goblin to modify any non-detainment Orc creature attack of normally more than one strike (tapping counts against the hazard limit): The first successful strike does not harm the character, but takes the character prisoner at Goblin Gate. Tap this card; this card never untaps. If tapped, The Great Goblin gives +2 prowess to all Orc creature attacks of normally more than one strike.

This would also mean it could only ever capture one character, but that's probably enough, and seems to be how Jambo meant it beforehand.

Btw, we don't want this usable against auto-attacks for the first clause, but what about the prowess bonus? Can that be for auto-attacks too? Maybe not necessary?

Frodo

Hey, I thought of something for Words of Power and Terror.

In the line about the Orc/Troll/Man bonus, can we add "...+2 prowess (+4 prowess if Mumak)" ?

I was thinking it would be pretty cool to encourage the use of this card. We'd be being pretty efficient with this virtual card too... helping make Mumak an actually pretty cool creature in a Nazgul attack deck! My only question is, is +4 prowess too strong? Should it be +3 only?

--Frodo

Re In the Name of Mordor I wouldn't worry about it too much. As it stands the card can already remove a Nazgul perm, which I didn't realise it could do! That means RWs have Ancient Secrets, VoM and In the Name of Mordor. This should be plenty to help a making the nine deck. Only a dedicated Nazgul strategy played by hero on minion would stop this dead and that would be extremely unusual. 3 MPs is the way to go. Remember a minion player may feel the need to use a 'normal' TRT to help play them.

Re The Great Goblin, I agree we should remove The Under-grottos. The idea is that this card could give the a player who attempts to rescue the character a chance at 2 MPs for killing the Goblin. Rescuing can be done by killing the Goblin after all and this potential reward may well encourage a player not to simply MT ot VoM it. All other prisoner cards don't come with a potential 2 MP reward.

Am I correct in thinking that under your ideas any other successful strikes from such an attack would simply wound a character? A capture from an unmodified orc creature attack (which has to be from a creature of normally more than one strike) will only be successful with Hobgoblins I imagine. Unless the player manages to get out a well timed DoN/Minions Stir combo.

Here's another alternative:

The Great Goblin [v]
As a permanent event, you may tap The Great Goblin to modify any non-detainment Orc creature attack of normally more than one strike (tapping counts against the hazard limit): +2 prowess and the first successful strike does not harm the character, but takes the character prisoner at Goblin Gate. Rescue attack: this creature's card as if played from the hand. If there are prisoners at Goblin Gate, each turn one Orc creature does not count against the hazard limit.

It will untap each untap phase. The reason I like this version is because it's usually the hazard limit that scuppers creature hazard strategies that require support cards - orcs being the number one.

I think someone (Joe?) just has to make decision, as all of these are good. I do feel the prowess bonus should just be for orc creatures with more than one strike. Redoubled Force already caters for Orc auto attacks very well and orc lieutenants don't need much help either.

More to follow.

Frodo wrote:Hey, I thought of something for Words of Power and Terror.

In the line about the Orc/Troll/Man bonus, can we add "...+2 prowess (+4 prowess if Mumak)" ?

I was thinking it would be pretty cool to encourage the use of this card. We'd be being pretty efficient with this virtual card too... helping make Mumak an actually pretty cool creature in a Nazgul attack deck! My only question is, is +4 prowess too strong? Should it be +3 only?

--Frodo

I'm not sure making the bonus +4 would encourage Mumak anymore, as the main issue is really one of playability. Mumak are cool but they're just too restricted.

Here are the other two under discussion.

First, to improve longevity and AP survivability, increase body:

[v] Darkness Under Tree
Long event
All Awakened Plant attacks receive +2 prowess and 1 extra attack. A character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Additionally, all Awakened Plant attacks with no body have 6 body. Cannot be duplicated.

To improve playability, remove keyed to site part:

[v] Waiting Shadow/Lost in the Wilderness
Playable on a non-Wizard, non-Ringwraith character facing a strike from an Awakened Plant. The strike receives +2 prowess. If the strike is defeated, discard this card. If the strike is not defeated, place creature's card with Lost in the Wilderness - creature is considered off to the side. The target character may not move to another site and the target character's company faces an attack from the creature at the start of each movement/hazard phase; attacker chooses defending characters. Discard associated creature's card if Lost In the Wilderness is discarded. Discard Lost In the Wilderness if attached Awakened Plant is defeated. Cannot be duplicated on a character.

Jambo wrote:The Great Goblin [v]
As a permanent event, you may tap The Great Goblin to modify any non-detainment Orc creature attack of normally more than one strike (tapping counts against the hazard limit): +2 prowess and the first successful strike does not harm the character, but takes the character prisoner at Goblin Gate. Rescue attack: this creature's card as if played from the hand. If there are prisoners at Goblin Gate, each turn one Orc creature does not count against the hazard limit.

i like it, i think it's the best one

Jambo wrote:I'm not sure making the bonus +4 would encourage Mumak anymore, as the main issue is really one of playability. Mumak are cool but they're just too restricted.

german promo (whatever its name is) and corsairs of umbar takes care of that... about the prowess bonus, +2 is ok

Frodo wrote:I am still worried about the huge MP bonus you can then get by simply throwing down three copies of these whenever it comes up in your deck

that decks NEEDS those points to be effective since it spends so many cards to get all the 9 that you don't have much space for more MPs. I still think it would be pretty much like a quest deck similar to hero KUtM or balrog's Lord and Usurper. Those decks spend some cards to be effective (KUtM = old thrush, sac form, etc, LaU = roots of the earth, great fissure, nasty slimy thing, etc)

Jambo wrote:Re In the Name of Mordor I wouldn't worry about it too much. As it stands the card can already remove a Nazgul perm, which I didn't realise it could do! That means RWs have Ancient Secrets, VoM and In the Name of Mordor. This should be plenty to help a making the nine deck. Only a dedicated Nazgul strategy played by hero on minion would stop this dead and that would be extremely unusual. 3 MPs is the way to go. Remember a minion player may feel the need to use a 'normal' TRT to help play them.

agree with this, the only change i would make is making it worth 3 MPs for now. If we see that the TRT strategy still needs more help, we can do a helper for set 2. Also, a dedicated TRT strategy can use itself the Nazgul hazard strat to protect against opponent's nazguls...

Jambo wrote:[v] Darkness Under Tree
Long event
All Awakened Plant attacks receive +2 prowess and 1 extra attack. A character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Additionally, all Awakened Plant attacks with no body have 6 body. Cannot be duplicated.

[v] Waiting Shadow/Lost in the Wilderness
Playable on a non-Wizard, non-Ringwraith character facing a strike from an Awakened Plant. The strike receives +2 prowess. If the strike is defeated, discard this card. If the strike is not defeated, place creature's card with Lost in the Wilderness - creature is considered off to the side. The target character may not move to another site and the target character's company faces an attack from the creature at the start of each movement/hazard phase; attacker chooses defending characters. Discard associated creature's card if Lost In the Wilderness is discarded. Discard Lost In the Wilderness if attached Awakened Plant is defeated. Cannot be duplicated on a character.

agree with this 2, we've got our final versions?

we need to move on quickly and decide what to do in order to get the set finished for the upcoming tourney, and why not, start thinking in set 2 (is it bad to dream a bit?)