Final two Awakened Plant cards:

[Frodo]

TITLES
I agree with Thorsten’s title changes… I forgot that Jamie’s Choking Shadows would be a card that isn’t duplicated too often in a deck.
So “Choking Shadows will be Waiting Shadow”, “Darkness under Tree will be Choking Shadows: it's the booster that everybody will want most, so it should be common”, and “Waiting Shadow will be Darkness under Tree.”

ENT CAPTURE CARD
Re: Jambo’s Choking Shadow/New Waiting Shadow: I still like the capturing text better since it’s more thematic (stuck in its roots!). However, it IS pretty powerful. Do you guys think this card should be made Unique?

ENT ATTACK ENHANCER CARD
I’m a little confused by the ally talk now. Thorsten wrote –“Well like I said, Ent in Search can ask questions to Treebeard now too, so there's no change. The question is, do we need to manifest preference of one card over the other. I'd say yes, AP's should still be playable against Radagast or Ent-allies, Treebeard doesn't controll all the Huorns you know, they have a dark hart.” I assumed Thorsten was suggesting here that we CAN have APs attacking companies that control Ents, and therefore there’s NO need for the line limiting the play of APs against Ent company. But then you guys kept this line and even added another line to make sure Ents keep the playability on their card when you wrote:

“Awakened Plant creatures may not be played on a company with any of the aforementioned allies, unless keyed to sites or regions as stated on the creature card.”

I really think this is unnecessary and just splitting hairs. Why are we privileging the sites/regions listed on the creature card? Let’s decide if we want APs to be able to attack Ent-companies, or not. If we DO want them to be able to attack, we can cut this line entirely. If we DON’T, let’s leave the old line (“In addition, any Awakened Plant may be played keyed to a site or region where Blackbole or an ally playable at Wellinghall is present, unless any of those allies are in the resource player’s company.) However, after thinking about the various Awakened Plant creatures available (Huorn, Old Man, Ent in Search Of), I realized that the only ostensibly “good” Ent is probably the one in the picture “Ent in Seach of”, but he can’t be played against Ent-companies anyway for a kill attack, because these will be hero! So only Huorn and Old Man Willow can be played, and these can just thematically be looked at as the ents with “bad hearts” if they are used in this fashion. Therefore, I’m pushing for eliminating this restriction entirely, and letting the APs hit everybody, even Ent-ally companies.

Thorsten, you’re right about the shadow-hold detainment issue, so of course let’s add this line back in. (“Awakened Plant attacks at Shadow-holds are not detainment.”)

I forgot that we only have two cards available for APs. Guys, isn’t the regeneration card Nature’s Revenge more important for the AP strategy than the Ent Capture Hazard? I do like the Ent capture hazard, but if we can only release two cards now, then we should probably include Nature’s revenge and the AP attack doubler, right?

Frodo

[Frodo]

But another option would be to delay Shadowfax, or In Darkness Bind Them, or even Radagast himself until set 2... surely the three enhancers we are debating for the APs are more important?

Yikes, I just thought of something else: How can we successfully playtest the AP strategy, and know whether the enhancer cards are truly enough, unless we have all the main ones tested at the same time?

It strikes me that Radgast and the AP-capture card (now Waiting Shadow) are the least important, and WS is less integral to an Ent strategy than Radagast.

Frodo

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Well, about including all the ent cards in VC1, I would be in favour of that, but since I re-entered the scene a bit later when it was already quite developed, I didn't want to press this, and I don't know the decissions about the VC's in general, if there is to be any coherent 'theme' or anything. Of course the other cards are less controversial, so it's easier to choose them now, and the proposers (and the rest too ) would all love to show them to the community.

here's how I see a coherent V AP theme, it should include actually all of these in the end: Choking Shadows (booster), Huorn (new plant cum booster), Nature's Revenge (regenerator), Waiting Shadow (capture cum roadblock), Radagst (recycler), and Darkness under Tree (pro-active attacker). That's six cards with all a moderate effect, but together they can make a very decent if not excellent strategy. I prefer more cards over cramping them together just for slot space, for many reasons.

I guess these won't all make it in VC1, so there are three options:
A) choose two now, which are most vital for creatue strategy is matter of debate: Choking Shadows and Nature's Revenge probably then.
B) decide to put all in VC2
C) kick out 3 other cards of VC1 without coherent theme. Of the six mentioned, I think either Darkness or Waiting are least essential, but I wouldn't exclude Radagast, since he's also a general boost to other creature strategies.

About the exceptions on keying AP's to comp. with ents allies, I think you have to look at it precisely Joe: we don't want our hazard strategy to completely backfire on us, by saying that ANY awakened plant can be played on us just because we played Treebeard or Rada's Blackbird. That would be thematically incorrect, and of course plain stupid in terms of making it attractive to play this card. But, we also don't want to Exclude All possibility to play an AP if opponent just incidently plays the right ally, and prevent contradictions between DuT and the creature cards. So try figuring that out! Actually I think we did it in a clear way, I mean I don't have IQ 150 and I get it. And I don't even get Legendary Hoard It just gets longer and longer, that's true, and people hate cards with alot of text.

You could try something like: Any awakened plant creature may be played on a company if the hazard player has a company in the same or adjacent region that contains an ally playable at Wellinghall (or Blackbole).
This would solve it, but then there's also multiplayer games...

[marcos]

ENT CAPTURE CARD
Re: Jambo’s Choking Shadow/New Waiting Shadow: I still like the capturing text better since it’s more thematic (stuck in its roots!). However, it IS pretty powerful. Do you guys think this card should be made Unique?

nah, i don't think it needs to be unique...

ENT ATTACK ENHANCER CARD
I assumed Thorsten was suggesting here that we CAN have APs attacking companies that control Ents, and therefore there’s NO need for the line limiting the play of APs against Ent company. But then you guys kept this line and even added another line to make sure Ents keep the playability on their card when you wrote:

“Awakened Plant creatures may not be played on a company with any of the aforementioned allies, unless keyed to sites or regions as stated on the creature card.”

Let’s decide if we want APs to be able to attack Ent-companies, or not. If we DO want them to be able to attack, we can cut this line entirely. Therefore, I’m pushing for eliminating this restriction entirely, and letting the APs hit everybody, even Ent-ally companies.

agree with this

Thorsten, you’re right about the shadow-hold detainment issue, so of course let’s add this line back in. (“Awakened Plant attacks at Shadow-holds are not detainment.”)

agree with this too

I forgot that we only have two cards available for APs. Guys, isn’t the regeneration card Nature’s Revenge more important for the AP strategy than the Ent Capture Hazard? I do like the Ent capture hazard, but if we can only release two cards now, then we should probably include Nature’s revenge and the AP attack doubler, right?

Frodo

I don't agree with this, i think we should keep with the already decided, if we don't we keep being stucked and we delay the set more and more...

You could try something like: Any awakened plant creature may be played on a company if the hazard player has a company in the same or adjacent region that contains an ally playable at Wellinghall (or Blackbole).

excellent! i love it!

[Jambo]

Right.

I see the Waiting Shadow (capture card) as a miscellaneous card for the AP strategy and not a booster per sé. Therefore, maybe this card should indeed wait until we have a viable AP strategy in place to begin with; one which is tested and proven to be sound. With that in mind and while card space is limited, I'd advocate this card waiting for set 2 (much as I love it).

This then leaves the door open for two boosters, and as Radagast has been duly approved, this should not include recyclers. I do have a feeling that Radagast recycling wolves will prove to be too powerful as wolves when boosted are currently a lot tougher than AP and animal alternatives. Wolves also already have a viable recycler in the Spawn card. Maybe for playtesting purposes and for the sake of getting this set ready for the tournament, this wolf recycling can remain for the time being. Thoughts?

Back on to the boosters we have, both Choking Shadows and Nature's Revenge seem to be the most critical. I'll be the first to admit I'm not enamoured by the Ent ally to huorn/Old Man Willow link in Choking Shadows. I find the text unnecessarily cumbersome (not that there's much one can do about it) and it will cause confusion. Huorns and Old Man Willow are dark hearted and Ents will only attack as detainment versus hero anyway. Seems logical as it stands. If I recall correctly it was actually Tom Bombadil who saved Frodo from Old Man Willow. So please don't complicate things further.

Once we have a good AP strategy, we'll be better placed to design a fair and workable Waiting Shadow. It is the most specific and probably also the most powerful and if this is in use when a booster is subsequently brought into existence, it could easily knock the whole balance out.

[marcos]

so chocking shadows and nature's revenge it is?

i agree with using this 2, but i don't agree with delaying the already decided ones...

About radagast, we should test it with wolves on it, then we can decide if remove or not if it turns to be too powerful.... C'mon, wolves don't see that much play... let's give them a try

Back on to the boosters we have, both Choking Shadows and Nature's Revenge seem to be the most critical. I'll be the first to admit I'm not enamoured by the Ent ally to huorn/Old Man Willow link in Choking Shadows. I find the text unnecessarily cumbersome (not that there's much one can do about it) and it will cause confusion. Huorns and Old Man Willow are dark hearted and Ents will only attack as detainment versus hero anyway. Seems logical as it stands. If I recall correctly it was actually Tom Bombadil who saved Frodo from Old Man Willow. So please don't complicate things further.

you are right on this... i guess we didn't noticed it before
we remove the entire clause then...

[Jambo]

Ok cool. So how about:

Choking Shadows V:
Permanent-event
All Awakened Plant attacks are doubled. One character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Any Awakened Plant creature can be played against a company that has defeated an Awakened Plant creature during its current movement/hazard phase. Awakened Plant creature attacks at Shadow-holds [Sh] attack normally, not as detainment. Discard when any play deck is exhausted. Cannot be duplicated.

Nature's Revenge V:
(1MP) Short-event
Playable on an eliminated Awakened Plant creature that could attack the company. The creature attacks the company immediately (not counting against the hazard limit) and the attack receives +1 strike and chooses defending characters. If the creature is defeated place Nature's Revenge in your opponent's marshalling point pile and he receives 1 marshalling point. Discard the creature if it is not defeated.

Together these would be very good I think!

[marcos]

i guess i've been missunderstood, i do want the ally part on the card, but written as Thorsten or Joe said:

Any awakened plant creature may be played on a company if the hazard player has a company in the same site, non coastal sea region or adjacent region that contains an ally playable at Wellinghall (or Blackbole).

In addition, any Awakened Plant may be played keyed to a site, non coastal sea region or adjacent region where Blackbole or an ally playable at Wellinghall is present, unless any of those allies are in the resource player’s company

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Any awakened plant creature may be played on a company, if the hazard player has a company at a site in the same or adjacent region (non coastal sea) that contains an ally playable at Wellinghall (or Blackbole).

I would like the ally clause on a separate card altogether, but I think my last formulation is a good solution if you want it on the booster, right Jambo? It's a bit onorthodox, but there's nothing confusing there that I can see.

I do have a feeling that Radagast recycling wolves will prove to be too powerful as wolves when boosted are currently a lot tougher than AP and animal alternatives.

here here!

[marcos]

Nature's Revenge V:
(1MP) Short-event
Playable on an eliminated Awakened Plant creature that could attack the company. The creature attacks the company immediately (not counting against the hazard limit) and the attack receives +1 strike and chooses defending characters. If the creature is defeated place Nature's Revenge in your opponent's marshalling point pile and he receives 1 marshalling point. Discard the creature if it is not defeated.

if creature is not defeated, both nature's revenge and creature are discarded?

and, how about:
Choking Shadows V:
Permanent-event
All Awakened Plant attacks are doubled. One character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Any Awakened Plant creature can be played against a company that has defeated an Awakened Plant creature during its current movement/hazard phase.Any awakened plant creature may be played on a company, if the hazard player has a company at a site in the same or adjacent region (non coastal sea) that contains an ally playable at Wellinghall (or Blackbole). Awakened Plant creature attacks at Shadow-holds [Sh] attack normally, not as detainment. Discard when any play deck is exhausted. Cannot be duplicated.

is this ok to all this way? (hope yes and we finally come to a conclusion)

[Thorsten the Traveller]

fine by me.
Only thing I'm thinking about, so that we're all agreed, is this like a Buthrakaur ability? so creatures are not considered keyed to anything, nor count against HL?
Personally I'm fine with free of keyability, it circumvents Secret Passage and stuff. But free of HL? no. Problem is, then you'd have to mention that on the card, twice actually, to be very clear, and is there enough space for that?

[marcos]

they do count, becuase it's not stated on the card. Much different is with Buthra/ Umagaur, wich they do state that orcs/trolls do not count against HL...

exaclty, they are not keyed to anything

[Balin]

I'm a newbie here, so don't care too much about my opinions

The extra keyability for ents and Blackbole is a wee bit clunky and I imagine it will cause confusion, as to what's allowed and what's not

I agree here. Furthermore, it's hard to explain how a Hero ent ally (such as Treebeard) can allow an AP to attack a Hero company, it should be detainment at least.

BTW, I think 2 AP cards on V1 set it's good enough.

[marcos]

I'm a newbie here, so don't care too much about my opinions

The extra keyability for ents and Blackbole is a wee bit clunky and I imagine it will cause confusion, as to what's allowed and what's not

I agree here. Furthermore, it's hard to explain how a Hero ent ally (such as Treebeard) can allow an AP to attack a Hero company, it should be detainment at least.

BTW, I think 2 AP cards on V1 set it's good enough.

nice catch Agus! ok then... let's remove the ally part, it is ok with me. What agus just pointed out makes a lot of sense... We can leave this extra keyability for any upcoming new card, and we can add something to the card that includes what agus just said (the detainment stuff)

so it will be like Jambo said before:

Choking Shadows V:
Permanent-event
All Awakened Plant attacks are doubled. One character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Any Awakened Plant creature can be played against a company that has defeated an Awakened Plant creature during its current movement/hazard phase. Awakened Plant creature attacks at Shadow-holds [Sh] attack normally, not as detainment. Discard when any play deck is exhausted. Cannot be duplicated.

now, can anyone explain me this:

Nature's Revenge V:
(1MP) Short-event
Playable on an eliminated Awakened Plant creature that could attack the company. The creature attacks the company immediately (not counting against the hazard limit) and the attack receives +1 strike and chooses defending characters. If the creature is defeated place Nature's Revenge in your opponent's marshalling point pile and he receives 1 marshalling point. Discard the creature if it is not defeated.

if creature is not defeated, both nature's revenge and creature are discarded?

[Jambo]

Sure, you're correct marcos. That little extra can be added to clarify that the short-event is discarded if the creature's not defeated.