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Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 3:49 am
by the JabberwocK
In is not entirely clear what happens after a card leaves play which forces a player to use the opposite alignment version of certain sites. Therefore, I propose the following Rule Erratum to The White Hand rules insert:

Change This:
The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g. Plotting
Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards
already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type.
To This:
The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g. Plotting
Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards
already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type. If such a card is subsequently removed from active play, immediately revert any affected site cards back to their original versions.
(changes in bold)

Reference Topic: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 551#p28978

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:26 am
by Konrad Klar
Or:

"The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g. Plotting
Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards
already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type. If such a card is subsequently removed from active play, immediately revert any affected site cards back to their original versions."

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:32 am
by the JabberwocK
Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:26 am
Or:

"The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g. Plotting
Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards
already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type. If such a card is subsequently removed from active play, immediately revert any affected site cards back to their original versions."
Can you give a clear example that illustrates the difference between "removed from play" and "removed from active play"?

Thanks

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:24 am
by Konrad Klar
A card removed from play by Aware of their Ways goes to out-of-play pile.
The card has not been removed from active play by Aware of their Ways, because at the moment it was not on play surface.

Heart Grown Cold discarded by Marvels Told is considered removed from active play. Shifter of Hues returned to hand is considered removed from active play.

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:20 pm
by the JabberwocK
Okay thank you. You are right, it is possible to “remove a card from play” that is not currently on the playing surface, so I like your addition of the “active” qualifier.

I have amended my OP proposal to include this.


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Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:08 pm
by Theo
Can I suggest the addition of something like "if necessary according to remaining effects or Fallen-Wizard rules"? If two such cards are in play simultaneously and one is removed, I don't think the site types should revert. If hypothetical card that forced R&L to be minion were played when a company was using a hero R&L, I don't think site type should revert (but could understand others arguing differently on that one).

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:16 am
by the JabberwocK
@ Theo -

I'm not sure I'm completely clear on what you're saying. Are you saying, for example, that if 2 copies of Heart Grown Cold are in play, that simply removing the original copy will not make sites revert back?

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:52 am
by Konrad Klar
"The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g. Plotting
Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards
already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type. If such a card is subsequently removed from active play, immediately exchange any affected site cards already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type."

This eliminates the words "back" and "revert". Which site cards are affected when "such a card is subsequently removed from active play" depends also on presence of other such cards in play.

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:17 am
by Theo
the Jabberwock wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:16 am
Are you saying, for example, that if 2 copies of Heart Grown Cold are in play, that simply removing the original copy will not make sites revert back?
I'm saying I think site alignments should be swapped if and only if the current combination of effects requires a different site alignment than what is currently in play. The original proposal wording would revert the site back when one of two in-play Heart Grown Colds is removed, even though there is a remaining Heart Grown Cold that prevents that alignment, and doesn't speak to what action to take to resolve this illegal state since there is no new card play that changes the type of sites that your companies may use.

New version seems better but still fragile. I could see it being argued that only the first Heart Grown Cold had a chance to change the type of sites that your companies may use. Perhaps the culprit is really that this rule is framed only with "The play of certain cards", rather than "The effects of certain cards". Refocusing on effects seems to resolve more naturally; the first Heart Grown Cold might cause the site to revert, but then an existing second Heart Grown Cold would mandate an immediate re-exchange. Thoughts?

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:08 am
by Konrad Klar
Effects of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g. Plotting
Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When the effects and/or their additional conditions appear or disappear in play, immediately exchange any affected site cards already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type.

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:33 pm
by CDavis7M
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:08 am
Effects of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g. Plotting
Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When the effects and/or their additional conditions appear or disappear in play, immediately exchange any affected site cards already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type.
I think Theo raised an important point. This proposal by Konrad seems to capture the issues discussed. I'm not quite sure of the "their additional conditions" or the "appear or disappear" language but I can't think of an alternative at the moment. I think the idea here is to capture the conditional "if" effects. Like, if the FW has a threshold amount of SP, then they use minion sites for [-me_fh-] .

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:26 pm
by the JabberwocK
This submission will be included in this year's ARV.

Thanks to everyone for your input on this.
Here is an updated attempt at the language.... please let me know what you guys think:

{Rules Erratum}
Change This:
The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g. Plotting
Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards
already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type.
To This:
The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g. Plotting
Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). Any time such an effect is created, immediately exchange any affected site cards already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type. Any time there is no longer an effect in play causing such an altered state, immediately revert any affected site cards back to their original versions.
(changes in bold)

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:24 pm
by CDavis7M
Yes. That's consistent with the Rulings that the game state is what matters, not individual cards coming in and out of play.
From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>
>>>7) *Will of Sauron* is in play. During the m/h phase Marvels Told is
>>>targetted against it, in response another Will of Sauron is played.
>(legal because the first WoS is targeted for discard, right?)
>>> When the initial Will of Sauron is discarded do all hazard long-events
>get
>>>discarded (including the second WoS) with it even though the second Will
>of
>>>Sauron is in play?
>
>>No.
>
>I realize the second WoS would not be discarded since WoS is a
>permanent-event, (initially I was thinking it was a long-event), but why
>wouldn't all long-events be discarded along with the first WoS, since by
>its text "when this card is discarded, all hazard long-events are
>discarded" ?
It's just like Doors of Night. It's not the discard of a particular
card that discards other cards, it's the change in the game state
from Will of Sauron to not WoS.

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:47 pm
by Theo
[-me_wh-] (high five?)

Re: Reversion of Site Types

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:03 pm
by CDavis7M
ICE Digest 122 - August 18, 1998" wrote: Question:
When *Heart Grown Cold* enters play do all site cards currently being used by affected FW players immediately transform into their minon versions (including those used by the FW's agents revealed or unrevealed) or are only newly played site cards affected by HGC?

Answer:
From the White Hand rules:

The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies
may use (e.g. Plotting Ruin, HEART GROWN COLD, etc.). When this happens,
immediately excange any affected site cards already in play with the
corresponding site cards of the proper type.


----------

Question:
When HGC is removed from play do all affected site cards instantaneously transform back into their hero versions?

Answer:
Yes. See above.
If HGC is removed from play (meaning no other HGC is in play) then the sites change instantaneously.