Thrall of the Voice: Character Play Restrictions

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:24 pm If playing a character according to Trall would be immediate action, then restrictions "during organization, phase", "may be also in your starting company" do not make a sense. Stage resource may be played only at these point of game.

If playing a character according to Open to the Summons would be immediate action, then "Cannot be duplicated on given character" does not make a sense too.
I disagree. "During your organization phase you may bring into play one character with up to a 6 mind instead of a normal character" has the same meaning as what is written on Thrall. Referring to the organization phase makes sense because Thrall's immediate action is taking place of that action.

"Maybe also be in your starting company" makes sense because it overrides the rules preventing 6 mind characters from being in the starting company. The rules on "playing" cards and resolving cards in a chain of effects, etc., do not apply during the draft. The game had not even begun.

And Open to the Summons is played in lieu of minor items, minor items are assigned after the draft, open to the Summons is revealed during the draft, and a player's unique minion may be duplicated in the draft, leaving him with an extra copy of Open to the Summons and wondering if he can just duplicate it on a character for -2 mind.

Is it not possible to assign 2 minor items to a character after the draft? Is it not possible to assign 2 permanent events played in lieu of a minor item to the same character?

----
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:24 pm Master of Esgaroth allows for an action to be taken later.
Master of Esgaroth creates an action triggered by a passive condition. If the condition is satisfied (moved to a borderhold), the action (another M/H phase) happens automatically. The player does not need to move to another site, but they will have another movement/hazard phase whether they want to or not. The effect is in play and cannot be avoided.
Playable  at  the  end  of  the  organization  phase  on  a  moving  company.  If  the  company  moves  to  a  Border‐hold,  it  can  take  a  second  movement/hazard  phase  immediately  following  its  first  movement/hazard  phase.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:29 pm "Maybe also be in your starting company" makes sense because it overrides the rules preventing 6 mind characters from being in the starting company. The rules on "playing" cards and resolving cards in a chain of effects, etc., do not apply during the draft. The game had not even begun.
Without "Such a character may also be in your starting company." playing the character according to Thrall would be restricted to player's organization phase.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:29 pm And Open to the Summons is played in lieu of minor items, minor items are assigned after the draft, open to the Summons is revealed during the draft, and a player's unique minion may be duplicated in the draft, leaving him with an extra copy of Open to the Summons and wondering if he can just duplicate it on a character for -2 mind.
Because you often repeating it:
Open to the Summons is not a minor item. It is revealed during draft as character would be revealed and comes into play at the same time.
In lieu of playing a minor item means that if one copy of Open to the Summons is played in such way, one minor item cannot be assigned.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:29 pm Master of Esgaroth creates an action triggered by a passive condition. If the condition is satisfied (moved to a borderhold), the action (another M/H phase) happens automatically. The player does not need to move to another site, but they will have another movement/hazard phase whether they want to or not. The effect is in play and cannot be avoided.
Voluntary actions are never a triggered actions.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:23 am
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:29 pm And Open to the Summons is played in lieu of minor items, minor items are assigned after the draft, open to the Summons is revealed during the draft, and a player's unique minion may be duplicated in the draft, leaving him with an extra copy of Open to the Summons and wondering if he can just duplicate it on a character for -2 mind.
Because you often repeating it:
Open to the Summons is not a minor item. It is revealed during draft as character would be revealed and comes into play at the same time.
In lieu of playing a minor item means that if one copy of Open to the Summons is played in such way, one minor item cannot be assigned.
My point is: "cannot be duplicated" on Open to the Summons does not somehow suggest that it's effects are not immediately implemented as stated in the rules on permanent events.

And "cannot be duplicated" does serve a purpose. It prevents a player from assigning 2 copies to the same agent after the draft. There is nothing in the rules on Beginning the Game or the tournament rules that would prevent a player from assigning 2 permanent events to the same character during setup of the game. The rules of the game don't operate during setup. Characters and events and items are not "played" per the game rules.

----
Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:23 am
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:29 pm Master of Esgaroth creates an action triggered by a passive condition. If the condition is satisfied (moved to a borderhold), the action (another M/H phase) happens automatically. The player does not need to move to another site, but they will have another movement/hazard phase whether they want to or not. The effect is in play and cannot be avoided.
Voluntary actions are never a triggered actions.
The voluntary action was playing Master of Esgaroth. Once it is resolved, the die is cast.

Discarding or tapping something as an active condition to an action is what makes thay action voluntary.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

If the company moves to a Border‐hold, it can take a second movement/hazard phase immediately following its first movement/hazard phase.
" it can" make "take a second movement/hazard phase immediately following its first movement/hazard phase" voluntary action.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

I'm trying to imagine how you imagine the OttS is working:
"One agent minion may be played with target company at a [-me_dha-]" is immediate, but voluntary action - to be taken only when OttS executes.
So even three copies may be played on company, but if while executing 3rd copy player will decide to play agent at [-me_dha-] ther three copies will try to be placed on the agent, but due to "Cannot be duplicated on given character", only one successfully.
Remaining two copies will be on company unuseful forever or at least they will be discarded when company will cease to exist (or until Stormcrow if the company contains Fallen Wizard character).
Right?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:45 am
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:58 am If Bounty enabled an item to be played later, it would use the "playable" terminology used in many MEWH cards. And it would need to be a permanent event played on the site or say "until the end of the turn" in order for the effect to last beyond resolution of Bounty.
Or it would say: "this turn xyz item may be played at such site". "Playable" could allow Lobelia at Framsburg to tap to search for major item.
I believe you folks are forgetting about:
CoE #31 wrote:*** If a short event's text doesn't indicate a duration for its effect, the effect lasts until the end of the turn, so you presume correctly.
Further, Bounty of the Hoard specifically does not restrict to the current site, even as written; it simply targets a site. :) But this doesn't allow a company that has already finished their site phase to immediately take a "play an item" action because it does not modify the standard requirement that items can only be played by a character during that character's company's site phase.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Theo wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:24 am I believe you folks are forgetting about:
CoE #31 wrote:
*** If a short event's text doesn't indicate a duration for its effect, the effect lasts until the end of the turn, so you presume correctly.
If you mistake a voluntary action with an effect, you can remember yourself CoE #31.
Theo wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:24 am Further, Bounty of the Hoard specifically does not restrict to the current site, even as written; it simply targets a site.
Is not playable on anything. Player has time between declaration and resolution to make a site to be containing hoard and tapped (if not already).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

And how different is
"A minor or major item may be played." of Hoard Well-searched
from
"One minor or major item may be played at a tapped site that contains a hoard." of Bounty of the Hoard
?

What makes one "an action" and other "an effect"?
Or maybe both are "effects"?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Neither allow an active action (e.g. "character may play"), so I'd say that both allowances are effects ("item may be played"). One is an effect on a company, the other is an effect on a (target) tapped site.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:58 pm
If the company moves to a Border‐hold, it can take a second movement/hazard phase immediately following its first movement/hazard phase.
" it can" make "take a second movement/hazard phase immediately following its first movement/hazard phase" voluntary action.
Tapping Gollum to discard himself and The One Ring is a voluntary actions because the player decides whether the take the active condition or not.

For Baduila, Read "If Baduila is discarded" as "If you choose to discard Baduila." This is a voluntary action because the discarding because an active condition for the return to origin action.

Playing Master of Esgaroth is voluntary. Resolving its effects once it has been played is not voluntary.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:15 pm I'm trying to imagine how you imagine the OttS is working:
"One agent minion may be played with target company at a [-me_dha-]" is immediate, but voluntary action - to be taken only when OttS executes.
So even three copies may be played on company, but if while executing 3rd copy player will decide to play agent at [-me_dha-] ther three copies will try to be placed on the agent, but due to "Cannot be duplicated on given character", only one successfully.
Remaining two copies will be on company unuseful forever or at least they will be discarded when company will cease to exist (or until Stormcrow if the company contains Fallen Wizard character).
Right?
No. What?

If Open to the Summons is played during the game itself (not during the GETTING READY TO PLAY setup), then the actions just resolve as written on the card. There is nothing voluntary after Open to the Summons is played.

If 3 copies are played on a company in response to each other, then 3 agents can be played with the company.

The 3 copies cannot be played on the same agent because each copy can only be placed with "the agent" where "the agent" is the agent played by the effect of that copy (not by the effect of another copy, the placing is not a passive condition).

There is no possibility of duplicating Open to the Summons on the same character during the game. Only during setup of the game.

---------

As said before, during the GETTING READY TO PLAY setup, the timing rules don't apply. Character's are not played according to the rules. Events are not played according to the rules. Minor items are not played according to the rules. The GETTING READY TO PLAY setup process has its own rules. There is nothing to prevent a player from placing 2 permanent events on a character in the starting company during the GETTING READY TO PLAY process. So, to prevent multiple copies of Open to the Summons from being placed on the same character during setup, it says "Cannot be duplicated on a given character."
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Theo wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:24 am I believe you folks are forgetting about:
CoE #31 wrote:*** If a short event's text doesn't indicate a duration for its effect, the effect lasts until the end of the turn, so you presume correctly.
Further, Bounty of the Hoard specifically does not restrict to the current site, even as written; it simply targets a site. :) But this doesn't allow a company that has already finished their site phase to immediately take a "play an item" action because it does not modify the standard requirement that items can only be played by a character during that character's company's site phase.
CoE #31 was in response to Deeper Shadow's effect of "change a [-me_rl-] to [-me_sh-] or [-me_wi-] to [-me_sl-]." This is an effect with no duration. The CoE ruling says to interpret it as lasting until the end of the turn. This makes sense.

Bounty of the Hoard does not make something playable. It has an action that is implemented at resolution.

The rules/restrictions on "playing" items do not apply to items being played by card effects. The card will set it's own restrictions.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:59 am As said before, during the GETTING READY TO PLAY setup, the timing rules don't apply. Character's are not played according to the rules. Events are not played according to the rules. Minor items are not played according to the rules. The GETTING READY TO PLAY setup process has its own rules. There is nothing to prevent a player from placing 2 permanent events on a character in the starting company during the GETTING READY TO PLAY process. So, to prevent multiple copies of Open to the Summons from being placed on the same character during setup, it says "Cannot be duplicated on a given character."
Rules say that cards are revealed during draft.
Rules do not say that cards are not played.

White Hand says:
Starting Stage Cards wrote:You may not start such a card if the conditions required to play the card do not exist.
And if Bad Company or Thrall of the Voice wold not be in play during draft then it would not have effect on game. You could not include Orc, or Troll in starting company.

During draft cards are being revealed in first place, then eventually are being played.
Reason is simple. It must be checked in first place whether a revealed card does not duplicate with other unique/cannot be duplicated (on the same target) revealed in the same time card.

EDIT: "the eventually" > "then eventually"
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

I didn't say that the rules don't apply and that the effects of the cards don't have meaning.

I said that the characters/events/minor items are not played according to the normal rules. The rules dont have to say this. They describe a different format of revealing characters/events and selecting a starting site and assigning minor items. Nothing in the GETTING READY TO PLAY section follows the rules for playing cards. Other rules are followed, but not the rules for playing cards.

The rules for the draft don't describe how cards are "played." When Bad Company is revealed, it's effect becomes active and you can play an Orc. When Thrall is revealed, it's effect is active and "Such a character may also be in your starting company."
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Another cumbersome methods of not being played, not being in play, but still having effect on game, anyway.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:57 pm When Bad Company is revealed, it's effect becomes active and you can play an Orc.
When Hidden Haven is revealed you must specify the [-me_rl-] which is your starting site,
If both (at least two in multiplayer game) players will specify the same site and reveal Hidden Haven in the same time, Hidden Haven card is set aside. It does not come into play. It is not active when it is revealed.
Bad Company is neither unique nor cannot be duplicated card so it can came into play without problem, even if opponent(s) will reveal its copy at the same time.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Post Reply

Return to “2019 Annual Rules Vote - Submissions”