Thrall of the Voice: Character Play Restrictions

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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:20 am
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:02 pm For some reason a region or region symbol is not considered to be part of company site path.
If it would be removed then the removing would be an action. But a result of the action - is not considered - is not an action.
A corruption check is an action, but its final result - is eliminated, is discarded, is tapped, nothing - is not an action*.
Roam the Waste does not subtract a region symbols from path. It causes directly that they are not considered its part.
I agree that Roam the Waste states a final result. But I think that the actions necessary to achieve the final result are actually declared and resolved, as implied by the stated result. I don't see any room in the mechanics of the game for a region-type symbol of a site-path to be revealed and in play but not be "considered" to be in the site-path without an action modifying the site-path.

Also, the result of a corruption check is still an action (e.g., moving the character card to the discard pile, out of play pile, or tapping them) but this action is synonymous with the failed dice roll. "Annotation 23: When a character fails a corruption check, the standard effects of this (i.e., the character being discarded or eliminated and his items being discarded) are implemented immediately and are considered synonymous with the failed check."
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Theo
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I weary of pointing out your cyclic logic ("this can't be the rule because this can't be the rule").

Instead, how about a simple fact check:
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:31 pm According to the rules, the card text effects of a short event are immediately implemented and they will cause some activity in the game.
You switched "effects" to "activity" for possibly the dozenth time; this is False.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:31 pm Therefore, when Roam the Waste says "Each of your companies this turn is considered to have one fewer [-me_wi-] and one fewer [-me_sl-] in its site path" the player can understand that this refers to the action of "modifying" the region type attributes of a site path in the game.
Underlined is subjective, and so from an objective view of the rules it is False.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:31 pm If "Allows a character at a haven to attempt to bring a faction into play" in Old Road really did modify the rules for playability, it would need to set a duration, otherwise the effect would disappear when the Old Road short-event is discarded after resolution.
False. CoE ruled that short-events with unspecified duration last until end of turn.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:28 pm However, Bounty of the Hoard does not indicate a duration. Bounty doesn't have a lasting effect.
Ditto.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:28 pm The rules for events describe actions being resolved in a chain of effects. Regardless of tense, there is an action.
You yourself have already stated many times that this is False.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:02 pm the site path is still brought into play as defined by the region-type symbols on the region cards/new site
Perhaps you just meant this casually, but as an action this is False.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:55 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:31 pm If "Allows a character at a haven to attempt to bring a faction into play" in Old Road really did modify the rules for playability, it would need to set a duration, otherwise the effect would disappear when the Old Road short-event is discarded after resolution.
False. CoE ruled that short-events with unspecified duration last until end of turn.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:28 pm However, Bounty of the Hoard does not indicate a duration. Bounty doesn't have a lasting effect.
Ditto.
False. The CoE only ruled that lasting effects that don't have a duration last until the end of the turn (this was already established by ICE). The CoE did not rule that all effects without a duration last until the end of the turn (this would not make since as most effect are implemented immediately and obviously don't mention a duration). Bounty of the Hoard doesn't have a lasting effect. A ruling on duration of lasting effects doesn't apply to Bounty of the Hoard.

Your other points don't invalidate my position and they certainly don't prove your verb tense theory.
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CDavis7M
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Also, I thought more about this and realized that all of the restrictions on playing agents are actually part of the normal rules for playing characters. They are not separate rules for agents. Whereas the FW rules have separate rules for Characters and for Orcs in general, not with respect to the regular allowance for playing characters. And so I have changed my mind about playing agents, orcs, and 6+ mind characters using ACM/WHCTK/OTTS/TOTV.
MELE wrote:BRINGING CHARACTERS INTO PLAY (Starter Rules)
During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:
• You may play a non-Ringwraith character card. You must place him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site. If you do not have enough general influence or direct influence to control the character by the end of your organization phase, then the character is returned to your hand. You must place him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site.
• You may play a Ringwraith card if you do not have one in play. This is called “Revealing your Ringwraith.” You may not reveal a Ringwraith if your opponent has already revealed that Ringwraith. You must place your Ringwraith at his home site or at Minas Morgul. You need not control a Ringwraith with influence – he represents you, the player. While revealing your Ringwraith is an advantage, it also carries with it the danger of losing the game by having your Ringwraith eliminated.
. . .
To play a character card, you must have enough general influence or direct influence available to control the character into play. In addition, you must meet both of the following requirements: In addition, you must meet both of the following requirements:
• If the character is not an agent, you may only play him at his home site at any Darkhaven site. If the character is an agent, you may only play him at his home site.
• If your Ringwraith is in play, your Ringwraith (or a character with enough direct influence to
control the character to be played) must be at the site at which the character is to be played.
So, if the player takes the option to perform the activity: "you may play a non-Ringwraith character card" and that character card is an agent, then the character card must be played at the agent's homesite. The rule: "If the character is an agent, you may only play him at his home site." doesn't apply generally, but only to this optional activity.

The mind rules and orc rules for Fallen Wizards aren't described with respect to the regular allowance for playing characters as are the agent rules. So, perhaps they are still limiting on the effects of A Chance Meeting, etc? Still, most rules just govern how to play something or how take some action, instead of restricting the options once some effect is already played. Of course, the MEWH rules have all sorts of extra restrictions (e.g., targeting restrictions). So if these MEWH rules really do restrict the effects of events, they aren't so out of line.
MEWH wrote:CHARACTERS AND COMPANIES
All of your non-Orc and non-Troll characters are considered to be hero characters. Thus, a company consisting of only such characters is treated as a hero company. Such a company is covert for the purposes of playing minion resources.
• Your Fallen-wizard may only start at his home site.
• You may not start or bring into play any character with a mind greater than 5.
Note: See the section on Orcs and Trolls for more details.
MEWH wrote:SPECIAL ORC & TROLL RULES
A company with any Orc or Troll characters is an overt company. In addition, a company with any of the following allies is an overt company: Great Bats, Great Lord of Goblin-gate, Last Child of Ungoliant, Regiment of Black Crows, “Two-headed” Troll. Any other company is a hero company.
• Orcs that are “Half-orcs” are special — if a Half-orc is in a company with only Half-orcs and Men, the company is not overt (i.e., the Half-orcs appear to be ugly men to the casual observer). Half-orcs cannot take trophies. However, for all other purposes a Half-orc is considered an Orc.
• You may not play Orc and Troll characters until you have played the appropriate card (e.g., Bad Company).
• Unless at a Wizardhaven, and Orc or Troll cannot be in the same company as an Elf, Dwarf,
Dúnadan, or Hobbit.
. . .
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:30 pm Bounty of the Hoard doesn't have a lasting effect.
And so we cycle back to my comment about your cyclic logic.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:30 pm Your other points don't invalidate my position and they certainly don't prove your verb tense theory.
My verb tense theory cannot be proven. That is why it is called a theory. It can be evaluated for interpretability and consistency, which is more than can be said for basing rules on player subjectivity.
Last edited by Theo on Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:15 pm So, if the player takes the option to perform the activity: "you may play a non-Ringwraith character card" and that character card is an agent, then the character card must be played at the agent's homesite. The rule: "If the character is an agent, you may only play him at his home site." doesn't apply generally, but only to this optional activity.
Does this differ from my reasoning in one of the linked threads for this thread? https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... =16&t=3491

ACM/WHCTK/OTTS all specify explicitly that they allow specific sites based on type, so can be interpreted as overruling the normal homesite restriction regardless of whether one believes they allow their own action or not.

Because I do interpret Thrall of the Voice as creating its own play action that is used instead of the normal "you may play a non-Ringwraith character card" mechanic, the homesite (and Avatar/DI) restrictions needn't be observed. As written. The original post in this thread doesn't much care how the card is written. :?

---
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:15 pm The mind rules and orc rules for Fallen Wizards aren't described with respect to the regular allowance for playing characters as are the agent rules. So, perhaps they are still limiting on the effects of A Chance Meeting, etc?
Yes, I think this is the reasoning of most of us.
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:55 pm I don't see any room in the mechanics of the game for a region-type symbol of a site-path to be revealed and in play but not be "considered" to be in the site-path without an action modifying the site-path.
Palantir of Osgiliath gives 3 CP; if Bane of The Ithil-stone is in play the Palantir gives 6 CP.
Once Bane of The Ithil-stone there is no action invoked that modifies Palantir's CP.

An Unexpected Party causes that Dwarves with mind 2 or less in target company do not require an influence to be controlled.
No action is invoked that would remove an influence that the Dwarves otherwise require.

Misty Mountains allows for movement between some regions as though they were adjacent, while actually they are not adjacent.

The cards once they/their effects is in play create state different than state that would be otherwise.
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Theo wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:36 am My verb tense theory cannot be proven. That is why it is called a theory. It can be evaluated for interpretability and consistency, which is more than can be said for basing rules on player subjectivity.
Fair.

Many times ICE was using a phrase "is not playable" where "may not be played" makes any sense.
I would not expect a better discipline in case of using of "may be played" instead "you may play" or vice versa.
Verb tense theory has some use (sadly that it has any use) in case of non short-events. Some of them creates actions executed once when a card comes into play, and/or they create possibility to take an action later. and/or they set an actions to be executed in result of passive condition.
A tense in which some statements are expressed may be helpful or only method of distinguishing between the three types (see Face Out of Sight as example https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 416#p30416).

For short-events it should not be any criterion. If it would be a criterion, then Hoard Well-searched would be a card playable on company but actually affecting a site, not the company. Plausibly intentional?
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Most effects have actions and a few effects do not. In rare cases an effect refers to a rule and actually modifies the rules instead of creating an action.

An Unexpected Party does not create an action to modify a characters mind in order to let them be controlled without influence. Instead, An Unexpected Party modifies the rules on "INFLUENCING (CONTROLLING) A CHARACTER". You can tell because there is no action to be taken and the effect specifically refers to these rules by mentioning "influence to be controlled."

Misty Mountains also creates an effect that modifies the rules of the game. There is no action created by Misty Mountain's effect. Therefore "move as if the following pairs of regions were adjacent" modifies the "REGION MOVEMENT" rules requiring "that region card is adjacent to the next region card played" and so on. Misty Mountains specifically refers to a rule.

Unlike these cards, Bane of the Ithil Stone does not specifically refer to a rule. There is no rule on modifying corruption points. Instead, modifying attributes of a card is an action. Bane of the Ithil stone creates an action that modifies the corruption points of Palantiri, the action triggered using a passive condition. The corruption points of a Palantir are right there on the card, you don't need to look into the rules.

-----

Back to Thrall of the Voice, it does specifically reference a rule by stating "Instead of a normal character." This refers to the rule: "During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities: • You may play a character card. • You may play a Wizard card." And so Thrall's effect is used "instead" of that rule, but Thrall's effect does not modify that rule.
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:19 pm Some of them creates actions executed once when a card comes into play,
and/or they create possibility to take an action later.
and/or they set an actions to be executed in result of passive condition.

A tense in which some statements are expressed may be helpful or only method of distinguishing between the three types (see Face Out of Sight as example https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 416#p30416).
You could more easily distinguish between such effects (regardless of verb tense) by determining whether the effect states an action and whether that action also involves an active condition or a passive condition:
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:01 pm Effect of Events are either:
  • (A) An immediate action (almost every effect on an event, including immediate actions having active conditions)
  • (B) An action triggerable later by an active condition (mostly seen on some permanent events that tap)
  • (C) An action triggerable later by a passive condition (mostly seen on long and permanent events)
In rare cases, a card will have:
  • (D) An effect that modifies the rules of the game by referencing that rule (mostly on permanent stage events from MEWH)
  • (E) A handful of exceptions that could fall under (B) by using a mostly meaningless "tap this card to" active condition (see discussion of Armory, etc. below)
Short-events only ever do (A) or (C), and (C) is rare. I haven't noticed short-events that have other effects. I can't think of any short events that create a lasting effect that let you (B) perform some active condition later to trigger an action later on in the turn.

So, how can you tell what category an effect is? Start by assuming that it's (A) an immediate actions and see if that works. Does it (1) have an action and (2) have a specific target and (3) can be done immediately. If this is true, you're done. If not, why not?

Does the action not have (2) a specific target? Does it specify an action but that action applies to non-specific targets like "each" or "all" of something? Or is the target potentially not in play yet? Or is the action waiting for something to happen that hasn't happened yet? If so, it's (C) an action triggered by a passive condition.

Or is it not possible to (3) take the action immediately? Why can't the action be taken? Does the action require an entity to be tapped or discarded but that entity is potentially not in play (the entity is not required by this card)? Then it's (B) an action triggered by an active condition. If the action can't be taken because the target is not in play or the action is waiting for something to happen, see the points on (C) above.

Or, rarely, does the effect not even (1) specify an action that can be taken? Does the effect state when/how a class of actions can occur without specifying a particular action to be taken? Then the effect is (D) an effect that modifies the rules. By reading the effect, you can determine which corresponding rule is being modified.

What if it seems like the effect is under category (D) since it is an effect that allows you to do something beyond the rules, but then there is no corresponding rule that would be modified (meaning the effect is new)? Then the effect is likely under category (E) an exceptional effect that could have and probably should have been written with (B) an active condition to tap the card.
Face Out of Sight is not so difficult. "All on-guard cards are returned to owner's hands." Of course there are no on-guard cards during the long-even phase. But putting that aside, you can still determine that this is not an immediately implemented effect because there is no target that can be specified. Instead, the target is a class of "all on-guard cards." And there is a passive condition, which is the creation/presence of an on-guard card. You use of "all" in "all on-guard cards" is a big hint.

Once an on-guard card is place, this passive condition triggers Face Out of Sight's action to return the card to it's owner's hand.

I think this was discussed in that thread, but Gates/Doors were changed to say "When Doors of Night is played." This triggers only once.
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CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:01 pm Instead, modifying attributes of a card is an action. Bane of the Ithil stone creates an action that modifies the corruption points of Palantiri, the action triggered using a passive condition.
What is the passive condition here?
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"Palantíri", plural of Palantír.

The expression "for Palantíri" means "for each Palantír." This establishes a passive condition like many other cards using "each/all" of something. The corruption point modification is triggered when a Palantír is brought into play.
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:19 pm For short-events it should not be any criterion. If it would be a criterion, then Hoard Well-searched would be a card playable on company but actually affecting a site, not the company. Plausibly intentional?
I do not see any effect of Hoard Well-searched on a site.

(Also, thanks for referencing the Face Out of Sight thread... I'd been meaning to revisit it but couldn't remember which topic.)
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CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:04 pm "Palantíri", plural of Palantír.

The expression "for Palantíri" means "for each Palantír." This establishes a passive condition like many other cards using "each/all" of something. The corruption point modification is triggered when a Palantír is brought into play.
Thanks.
How long the modification persists?
As far I know companies returned to a site of origin in result of returning action from Snowstorm are not moved back on their route when Snowstorm leaves active play.
Site cards tapped in result the action from Long Winter do not untap when Long Winter leaves active play.
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Theo wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:13 pm
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:19 pm For short-events it should not be any criterion. If it would be a criterion, then Hoard Well-searched would be a card playable on company but actually affecting a site, not the company. Plausibly intentional?
I do not see any effect of Hoard Well-searched on a site.

(Also, thanks for referencing the Face Out of Sight thread... I'd been meaning to revisit it but couldn't remember which topic.)
How about Bounty of the Hoard?
Its text does not specify on what it is played.
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