Thrall of the Voice: Character Play Restrictions

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:08 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:57 pm When Bad Company is revealed, it's effect becomes active and you can play an Orc.
If both ... players will specify the same site and reveal Hidden Haven in the same time, Hidden Haven card is set aside. It does not come into play. It is not active when it is revealed.
Right. But I didn't say that a card that bounced during the draft would be active.

Its clear from the MEWH rules that when stage cards are revealed (and not bounced) their effects come into play -- "Such a character may also be in your starting company" in Thrall and "You may play Orc and Troll characters and include them in your starting company" in Bad Company.

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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:08 pm Another cumbersome methods of not being played, not being in play, but still having effect on game, anyway.
What other methods are there? I don't see any other methods bypassing the rules for playing cards found in "10 • Playing & Drawing Cards" besides the setup process in 3 • Getting Ready To Play".
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:59 am Bounty of the Hoard does not make something playable. It has an action that is implemented at resolution.
Again, by its verb tense Bounty of the Hoard modifies the legality of a (previously defined) play action taken upon an item. It does not create/allow its own item play action. I have presented verb tense as my evidence; please present something constructive in the future if you have evidence behind your beliefs.
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Theo wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:45 am
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:59 am Bounty of the Hoard does not make something playable. It has an action that is implemented at resolution.
Again, by its verb tense Bounty of the Hoard modifies the legality of a (previously defined) play action taken upon an item. It does not create/allow its own item play action. I have presented verb tense as my evidence; please present something constructive in the future if you have evidence behind your beliefs.
Bounty of the Hoard states:
(Short Event) Playable during the site phase. One minor or major item may be played at a tapped site that contains a hoard.
You noted that it states "may be played" instead of "character may play" (or similar). I find no basis for interpreting cards differently based on verb tense in the rules.

Instead, the rules state:
  • Short-event -- A short-event's effects are implemented; then, it is discarded. The effects of some short-events last for a specific period as stated on its card (e.g., some say: "until the end of the turn").
  • The various activities that you and your opponent can perform during play are called actions. Typical actions include playing a card, making a corruption check, revealing a card, etc.
  • If the play of a card requires other actions (e.g., corruption checks), the actions are resolved in the order in which they appear on the card.
The rules for events describe actions being resolved in a chain of effects. Regardless of tense, there is an action. The action is playing a minor or major item. The action happens at resolution unless it can be triggered later by some active or passive condition. Bounty of the Hoard states an action without an active or passive condition.

If Bounty of the Hoard were intended to modify the legality of a play action, it would state the modifications without stating the action. It would use language like:
  • (Permanent Event)One minor or major item is playable at a tapped site that contains a hoard during your site phase. OR
  • (Permanent Event)An additional minor or major item playable at this site this turn (if the site contains a hoard and is tapped)
The term "is playable" is not an action that can be taken at resolution. Instead, it is an effect. Such effects in the game are created by Permanent Events. Bounty of the Hoard is a short event that specifies an action that can be taken. It does not specify an effect and it does not provide a duration for the not-specified effect.

Therefore, the item is played at resolution of Bounty of the Hoard or else play of Bounty is not legal.
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Konrad Klar
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Theo wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:45 am
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:59 am Bounty of the Hoard does not make something playable. It has an action that is implemented at resolution.
Again, by its verb tense Bounty of the Hoard modifies the legality of a (previously defined) play action taken upon an item. It does not create/allow its own item play action. I have presented verb tense as my evidence; please present something constructive in the future if you have evidence behind your beliefs.
So if Bounty of the Hoard would create its own item play action it should say "you may play one minor or major item" instead "One minor or major item may be played"?
Hoard Well-searched should say "you may play one minor or major item" instead "A minor or major item may be played."
Right?
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Theo
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Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:35 pm So if Bounty of the Hoard would create its own item play action it should say "you may play one minor or major item" instead "One minor or major item may be played"?
Hoard Well-searched should say "you may play one minor or major item" instead "A minor or major item may be played."
Right?
Those would be cases where I would see no grounds upon which to argue, yes. Or just, "Play one minor or major item" imperative (though this would change the ability to not use the card).

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CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:05 am The rules for events describe actions being resolved in a chain of effects. Regardless of tense, there is an action.
Again, note the underline word choice... And didn't you already come to terms with not all effects being actions? I'd really rather not have to track down your own quote. What is the action for e.g. Roam the Waste? "Considering to have"?? Or any of the other "is considered" passive voice usage. Just because "play" verb could be an activity action does not mean that this is always the case; it actually cannot be the case when it appears in the passive voice.

Oh wait... you already decided that it is possible to state "the modifications without stating the action" in your next section:
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:05 am If Bounty of the Hoard were intended to modify the legality of a play action, it would state the modifications without stating the action. It would use language like:
  • (Permanent Event)One minor or major item is playable at a tapped site that contains a hoard during your site phase. OR
  • (Permanent Event)An additional minor or major item playable at this site this turn (if the site contains a hoard and is tapped)
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Unfortunately the consistency you desire is not upheld in the actual cards. Beyond numerous hazard creatures specifying their own playability (your interpretation would suggest this wording allows them to skirt the rule that they can only start a chain of effects), let's look at:
Fury of the Iron Crown: "May not be played if The Iron Crown is in play." (not "Is not playable if...")
Gwaihir: "only hazard creatures keyed to the site may be played on a company that moves in this fashion." (under your interpretation, this perhaps doesn't effect creatures that are "playable" on the company/site, and only effects creatures that would be immediately played upon resolution of another "may be played" effect?)

Similarly, I'd like to hear your explanation of such diverse cards as:
Old Road
Army of the Dead
Surion
Buthrakur the Green
The Gem-deeps
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Anyone have right to blame Gwaihir's text for not including "during its M/H phase" in "only hazard creatures keyed to the site may be played on a company that moves in this fashion. "phrase.
However the word "only" implies a restriction. It does not create a playing action.
A restriction does not make a sense if there is no a prior permission.
A company may be "moving" (in Gwaihir's fashion) only during M/H phase.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:05 am The rules for events describe actions being resolved in a chain of effects. Regardless of tense, there is an action.
Again, note the underline word choice... And didn't you already come to terms with not all effects being actions? I'd really rather not have to track down your own quote.
I wrote about this in the "old to the game" post. But my interpretation of the rules and events cards is summed up below.

Effect of Events are either:
  • (A) An immediate action (almost every effect on an event, including immediate actions having active conditions)
  • (B) An action triggerable later by an active condition (mostly seen on some permanent events that tap)
  • (C) An action triggerable later by a passive condition (mostly seen on long and permanent events)
In rare cases, a card will have:
  • (D) An effect that modifies the rules of the game by referencing that rule (mostly on permanent stage events from MEWH)
  • (E) A handful of exceptions that could fall under (B) by using a mostly meaningless "tap this card to" active condition (see discussion of Armory, etc. below)
Short-events only ever do (A) or (C), and (C) is rare. I haven't noticed short-events that have other effects. I can't think of any short events that create a lasting effect that let you (B) perform some active condition later to trigger an action later on in the turn.

So, how can you tell what category an effect is? Start by assuming that it's (A) an immediate actions and see if that works. Does it (1) have an action and (2) have a specific target and (3) can be done immediately. If this is true, you're done. If not, why not?

Does the action not have (2) a specific target? Does it specify an action but that action applies to non-specific targets like "each" or "all" of something? Or is the target potentially not in play yet? Or is the action waiting for something to happen that hasn't happened yet? If so, it's (C) an action triggered by a passive condition.

Or is it not possible to (3) take the action immediately? Why can't the action be taken? Does the action require an entity to be tapped or discarded but that entity is potentially not in play (the entity is not required by this card)? Then it's (B) an action triggered by an active condition. If the action can't be taken because the target is not in play or the action is waiting for something to happen, see the points on (C) above.

Or, rarely, does the effect not even (1) specify an action that can be taken? Does the effect state when/how a class of actions can occur without specifying a particular action to be taken? Then the effect is (D) an effect that modifies the rules. By reading the effect, you can determine which corresponding rule is being modified.

What if it seems like the effect is under category (D) since it is an effect that allows you to do something beyond the rules, but then there is no corresponding rule that would be modified (meaning the effect is new)? Then the effect is likely under category (E) an exceptional effect that could have and probably should have been written with (B) an active condition to tap the card.

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Theo wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am What is the action for e.g. Roam the Waste?
Roam the Waste has the following effect: "Each of your companies this turn is considered to have one fewer Wilderness and one fewer Shadow-land in its site path."

This effect creates (C) an action triggered by a passive condition. You can tell because the effect has an action but there is no way to specify a target ("each company" is affected). The action is removing a wilderness or shadow-land, the target is the company's site path, the passive condition triggering the action is the revealing of the company's site-path (revealing a new site, the region cards, special movement path, etc.).

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Theo wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am Unfortunately the consistency you desire is not upheld in the actual cards.
I think there is consistency except for a handful of exceptions that could easily be fit into the framework (Category E above). Some of those exceptions are effects from Armory, Rumours of Rings, A Strident Spawn, and similar cards. These cards have effects that don't fit the framework but could have fit the framework if they simply tapped to caused their effect (which would not diminish their usefulness). For example:
  • Armory: You may Tap Armory to place any minor items from your hand under Armory during your organization phase.
  • Rumours of Rings: During your organization phase, you may tap Rumours of Rings to take one ring special item (except for The One Ring) from your sideboard and place it "off to the side" with this card.
  • A Strident Spawn: During your organization phase, you may tap A Strident Spawn to take one Half-orc character from your discard pile to your hand.
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Theo wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am Beyond numerous hazard creatures specifying their own playability (your interpretation would suggest this wording allows them to skirt the rule that they can only start a chain of effects), let's look at:
Fury of the Iron Crown: "May not be played if The Iron Crown is in play." (not "Is not playable if...")
I don't see how my interpretation would allow a hazard creature to skirt the rules. I'm not asserting that playability conditions listed on cards are effects.

There are many statements on cards that are not effects. For example, (A) Playability conditions are not effects. (B) Keywords are not effects. (C) indications of effects being alternative/optional (e.g., use of "alternatively," "may be played as a creature or a permanent event, etc.) are not effects themselves.

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Theo wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am Gwaihir: "only hazard creatures keyed to the site may be played on a company that moves in this fashion." (under your interpretation, this perhaps doesn't effect creatures that are "playable" on the company/site, and only effects creatures that would be immediately played upon resolution of another "may be played" effect?)
I'm not following your statement. My interpretation of resolving events doesn't rely on a difference between (A) creatures that are "playable" on the company/site, and (B) creatures that would be immediately played upon resolution of another "may be played" effect.

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Theo wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am Similarly, I'd like to hear your explanation of such diverse cards as:

Old Road
Army of the Dead
Surion
Buthrakur the Green
The Gem-deeps
Ok, Sure. But what are the issues with these cards?
  • Old Road -- an early METW card that would be written more like Hour of Need if it came later (e.g., "playable on a character at a haven during the site phase. Play a faction from hand, tap some character to make an influence attempt, modify the attempt, etc).
  • Army of the Dead: "May only be played by Aragorn II on the same turn he plays Paths of the Dead." -- this statement has 2 conditions: (1) Aragorn II makes the influence attempts and (2) a playability condition like those found on events.
  • Surion -- what could be the issue here? That the factions are not named directly?
  • Buthrakur the Green: "Any non-unique Orc or Troll hazard creature can be played (not counting against the hazard limit) on a company that has faced Bûthrakaur that turn." -- This is an interesting effect. One of the few pre-MEWH cards that has (D) an effect that modifies the rules of the game by referencing that rule (the rules for playing creatures).
  • The Gem-deeps -- what is the issue here? Is it the "Special" effect for playing Undead and Pukel creatures? That's similar to Buthrakur.
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Each of your companies this turn is considered to have one fewer Wilderness and one fewer Shadow-land in its site path.
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:01 pm The action is removing a wilderness or shadow-land, the target is the company's site path, the passive condition triggering the action is the revealing of the company's site-path (revealing a new site, the region cards, special movement path, etc.).
This is too much for me! Either you need new glasses or to lay off the Longbottom. The card effect text does not include any of these claimed attributes. Whatever you are turning the actual words into in your mind does not make for a good rules basis because no one but you can verify it.

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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:01 pm
  • Buthrakur the Green: "Any non-unique Orc or Troll hazard creature can be played (not counting against the hazard limit) on a company that has faced Bûthrakaur that turn." -- This is an interesting effect. One of the few pre-MEWH cards that has (D) an effect that modifies the rules of the game by referencing that rule (the rules for playing creatures).
  • The Gem-deeps -- what is the issue here? Is it the "Special" effect for playing Undead and Pukel creatures? That's similar to Buthrakur.
Well, it seems you have the courage to at least indirectly discredit your own claim:
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:05 am If Bounty of the Hoard were intended to modify the legality of a play action, it would state the modifications without stating the action. It would use language like:

(Permanent Event)One minor or major item is playable at a tapped site that contains a hoard during your site phase. OR
(Permanent Event)An additional minor or major item playable at this site this turn (if the site contains a hoard and is tapped)
Even if your approach on other fronts is to deny existence of the reality:
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:01 pm
  • Old Road -- an early METW card that would be written more like Hour of Need if it came later (e.g., "playable on a character at a haven during the site phase. Play a faction from hand, tap some character to make an influence attempt, modify the attempt, etc).
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Theo wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:57 am
Each of your companies this turn is considered to have one fewer Wilderness and one fewer Shadow-land in its site path.
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:01 pm The action is removing a wilderness or shadow-land, the target is the company's site path, the passive condition triggering the action is the revealing of the company's site-path (revealing a new site, the region cards, special movement path, etc.).
This is too much for me! Either you need new glasses or to lay off the Longbottom. The card effect text does not include any of these claimed attributes. Whatever you are turning the actual words into in your mind does not make for a good rules basis because no one but you can verify it.
It's not me, it's what the rules say to do. Roam the waste is an Event. The rules on events say:
EVENTS
Short-event -- A short-event's effects are implemented; then, it is discarded. The effects of some short-events last for a specific period as stated on its card (e.g., some say : "until the end of the turn").

ACTIONS AND CARD PLAY
The various activities that you and your opponent can perform during play are called actions.
• If the play of a card requires other actions (e.g., corruption checks), the actions are resolved in the order in which they appear on the card.
According to the rules, the card text effects of a short event are immediately implemented and they will cause some activity in the game.

Region-types ( [-me_bl-][-me_cs-][-me_dd-], etc) are elements of the game. And while a player may "consider" the region-types in site path all they want, "considering" is not actually an activity in the game (nothing happens). But the player can determine from the English statement which elements and mechanics of the game are being described. Therefore, when Roam the Waste says "Each of your companies this turn is considered to have one fewer [-me_wi-] and one fewer [-me_sl-] in its site path" the player can understand that this refers to the action of "modifying" the region type attributes of a site path in the game. And so the action taken by Roam the Waste is modifying the sitepath to remove one [-me_wi-] and [-me_sl-] from it.

Most cards use plain English without ever referring to the underlying elements and mechanics of the game. Roam the Waste is no different. Reading comprehension based on the elements and mechanics of the game is sometimes required.

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Theo wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:57 am
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:01 pm
  • Buthrakur the Green: "Any non-unique Orc or Troll hazard creature can be played (not counting against the hazard limit) on a company that has faced Bûthrakaur that turn." -- This is an interesting effect. One of the few pre-MEWH cards that has (D) an effect that modifies the rules of the game by referencing that rule (the rules for playing creatures).
  • The Gem-deeps -- what is the issue here? Is it the "Special" effect for playing Undead and Pukel creatures? That's similar to Buthrakur.
Well, it seems you have the courage to at least indirectly discredit your own claim:
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:05 am If Bounty of the Hoard were intended to modify the legality of a play action, it would state the modifications without stating the action. It would use language like:

(Permanent Event)One minor or major item is playable at a tapped site that contains a hoard during your site phase. OR
(Permanent Event)An additional minor or major item playable at this site this turn (if the site contains a hoard and is tapped)
There is no discrediting of my own statements here.

Bounty of the Hoard is a SHORT EVENT. Buthrakur the Green is a CREATURE. The rules for resolving effects of events are different and do not apply to non-event cards like creatures. See page 40 of the MELE booklet for the rules on "EVENTS" and see page 46 for the rules on "HAZARD CARDS, NON-EVENT, Creature Cards." They have different sets of rules. Clearly the player does not immediately play an Orc as part of Buthrakur resolving. Similarly, characters are not immediate tapped when resolving Carrion Feeders. Plus, the effect lasts for the duration of the turn, it doesn't have to be performed immediately. It's clear that this creature effect is different from Bounty's event effect.

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Theo wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:57 am Even if your approach on other fronts is to deny existence of the reality:
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:01 pm
  • Old Road -- an early METW card that would be written more like Hour of Need if it came later (e.g., "playable on a character at a haven during the site phase. Play a faction from hand, tap some character to make an influence attempt, modify the attempt, etc).
The cards in MELE have improved language matching the rules compared to their counterparts in METW. If "Allows a character at a haven to attempt to bring a faction into play" in Old Road really did modify the rules for playability, it would need to set a duration, otherwise the effect would disappear when the Old Road short-event is discarded after resolution.
EVENTS
Short-event -- A short-event's effects are implemented; then, it is discarded. The effects of some short-events last for a specific period as stated on its card (e.g., some say : "until the end of the turn").
There is no period for lasting effects defined by Old Road. Therefore, it is an effect that is implemented immediately. It does not change the playability rules.

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So, as you can see, there is no basis for passive vs active tense in English governing the activities in the game. Instead, the English words on the cards are representative of underlying elements and mechanics defined by the rules of the game. While the game can be played using the plain English meaning 99% of the time, there are some situations where the player will need to understand and determine how the underlying game mechanics work.
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EVENTS
Short-event -- A short-event's effects are implemented; then, it is discarded. The effects of some short-events last for a specific period as stated on its card (e.g., some say : "until the end of the turn").
@CDavis7M
Do you really not see "this turn" in phrase:
"Each of your companies this turn is considered to have one fewer [-me_wi-] and one fewer [-me_sl-] in its site path"
?

Where are target company's site paths if in organization phase no company has site paths?
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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:32 pm
EVENTS
Short-event -- A short-event's effects are implemented; then, it is discarded. The effects of some short-events last for a specific period as stated on its card (e.g., some say : "until the end of the turn").
@CDavis7M
Do you really not see "this turn" in phrase:
"Each of your companies this turn is considered to have one fewer [-me_wi-] and one fewer [-me_sl-] in its site path"
?

Where are target company's site paths if in organization phase no company has site paths?
I was discussing both Roam the Waste and Bounty of the Hoard (and Buthrakaur the Green, etc).

I did see the phrase "this turn" in Roam the Waste. This creates a lasting effect using a passive condition to trigger actions later. I said:
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:01 pm
Theo wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am What is the action for e.g. Roam the Waste?
Roam the Waste has the following effect: "Each of your companies this turn is considered to have one fewer Wilderness and one fewer Shadow-land in its site path."

This effect creates (C) an action triggered by a passive condition. You can tell because the effect has an action but there is no way to specify a target ("each company" is affected). The action is removing a wilderness or shadow-land, the target is the company's site path, the passive condition triggering the action is the revealing of the company's site-path (revealing a new site, the region cards, special movement path, etc.).
So yes, Roam the Waste is a short event that implements a lasting effect (until the end of the turn). However, Bounty of the Hoard does not indicate a duration. Bounty doesn't have a lasting effect.

Regarding Bounty I said:
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:05 am Bounty of the Hoard states:
(Short Event) Playable during the site phase. One minor or major item may be played at a tapped site that contains a hoard.
. . .

The rules for events describe actions being resolved in a chain of effects. Regardless of tense, there is an action. The action is playing a minor or major item. The action happens at resolution unless it can be triggered later by some active or passive condition. Bounty of the Hoard states an action without an active or passive condition.

If Bounty of the Hoard were intended to modify the legality of a play action, it would state the modifications without stating the action. It would use language like:
  • (Permanent Event)One minor or major item is playable at a tapped site that contains a hoard during your site phase. OR
  • (Permanent Event)An additional minor or major item playable at this site this turn (if the site contains a hoard and is tapped)
The term "is playable" is not an action that can be taken at resolution. Instead, it is an effect. Such effects in the game are created by Permanent Events. Bounty of the Hoard is a short event that specifies an action that can be taken. It does not specify an effect and it does not provide a duration for the not-specified effect.

Therefore, the item is played at resolution of Bounty of the Hoard or else play of Bounty is not legal.
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If a company does not move through Elven Shores, it is not considered as having Elven Shores (and [-me_cs-] or any other region type the Elven Shores currently is) in its site path.
There is nothing to declare for this reason.

The same for:
"Each of your companies this turn is considered to have one fewer [-me_wi-] and one fewer [-me_sl-] in its site path"
The same for path of a company using Forod.

EDIT: "and through [-me_cs-]" > "and [-me_cs-]"
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:34 pm
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:08 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:57 pm When Bad Company is revealed, it's effect becomes active and you can play an Orc.
If both ... players will specify the same site and reveal Hidden Haven in the same time, Hidden Haven card is set aside. It does not come into play. It is not active when it is revealed.
Right. But I didn't say that a card that bounced during the draft would be active.

Its clear from the MEWH rules that when stage cards are revealed (and not bounced) their effects come into play -- "Such a character may also be in your starting company" in Thrall and "You may play Orc and Troll characters and include them in your starting company" in Bad Company.

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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:08 pm Another cumbersome methods of not being played, not being in play, but still having effect on game, anyway.
What other methods are there? I don't see any other methods bypassing the rules for playing cards found in "10 • Playing & Drawing Cards" besides the setup process in 3 • Getting Ready To Play".
Right. But I didn't say that a card that bounced during the draft would be active.
I still wonder how the (not bounced) card playable on [-me_rl-] makes effect on the [-me_rl-] if it is not considered played and it is not considered being in play (only revealed).
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:24 am If a company does not move through Elven Shores, it is not considered as having Elven Shores (and [-me_cs-] or any other region type the Elven Shores currently is) in its site path.
There is nothing to declare for this reason.
What is the conclusion that you draw from "There is nothing to declare for this reason" ?

Anyway, I see your Elven Shores [-me_cs-] scenario as being different from playing Roam the Waste. With Roam the Waste, the site path is still brought into play as defined by the region-type symbols on the region cards/new site. It's not as if one [-me_wi-] and one [-me_sl-] are not brought into play when revealing the site-path. Given that the region types are in play, the action of Roam the Waste must be to modify the site-path.

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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:58 pm I still wonder how the (not bounced) card playable on [-me_rl-] makes effect on the [-me_rl-] if it is not considered played and it is not considered being in play (only revealed).
The card playable on [-me_rl-] has rulings to solve its issues.

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Back to the original proposal/question:
the Jabberwock wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:58 pm I propose a vote to issue an official clarification:
Thrall of the Voice supersedes the normal rules for character play.
OR
Thrall of the Voice does not supersede the normal rules for character play.
I think the (somewhat misleading) answer is that "Thrall of the Voice supersedes the normal rules for character play." But instead of "supersede," I mean that a character can be played beyond the normal rules. Thrall doesn't "supersede the normal rules," it simply creates it's own new effect with its own restrictions.

Given that every effect of all every event is"immediately implemented" per the rules on EVENTS in 10 · PLAYING AND DRAWING CARDS and that "the actions are resolved in the order in which they appear on the card" per ACTIONS AND CARD PLAY, it is clear that Thrall plays a character by its own effect and does not modify the rules for playing characters.

If Thrall did modify the normal rules for playing characters, the following effects would fail at resolution of Thrall: "Place this card with the character." "-1 to his mind to a minimum of 1." These effects would fail since a character hasn't been played. And playing a character according to the normal rules cannot interrupt resolution of a chain of effects.

So, I would propose:
Proposal wrote:
Option 1 wrote:Thrall of the Voice creates an immediately implemented effect different from and not restricted by the normal rules for character play. (similar to "supersedes" above)
or
Option 2 wrote:Thrall of the Voice modifies the normal rules for character play. (similar to "does not supersede" above")
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:02 pm What is the conclusion that you draw from "There is nothing to declare for this reason" ?
This is the conclusion.
For some reason a region or region symbol is not considered to be part of company site path.
If it would be removed then the removing would be an action. But a result of the action - is not considered - is not an action.
A corruption check is an action, but its final result - is eliminated, is discarded, is tapped, nothing - is not an action*.
Roam the Waste does not subtract a region symbols from path. It causes directly that they are not considered its part.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:02 pm The card playable on has rulings to solve its issues.
I only want to remember that the state "not considered played, only revealed, but has effect on game" is persisting at least to untap phase of first turn of game.
Whatever method regulates the transition it is cumbersome.

*) eliminating, discarding, tapping are actions.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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