Council of Elrond

Face Out of Sight wrote:All on-guard cards are returned to owner's hands. At the end of any turn, all wounded agents and tapped agents are returned to their owner's hand. Cannot be duplicated. With a sudden flick, quick as lightning, an apple left his hand and hit Bill square in the nose. He ducked too late, and curses came from behind the hedge.-LotRI

"All on-guard cards are returned to owner's hands." sounds like a directive i.e. if to interpret it consistently with interpretation of texts of Gates of Morning or Doors of Night, it should be executed once when the card resolves. It is not an effect that works continuously, as long a card is in play.
Of course at a time of resolution of a resource long-events there are no on-guard cards placed.
So in practice the phrase is a doing nothing text.

I propose the following erratum:

"As long the card is in play all on-guard cards are returned to owner's hands. At the end of any turn, all wounded agents and tapped agents are returned to their owner's hand. Cannot be duplicated. With a sudden flick, quick as lightning, an apple left his hand and hit Bill square in the nose. He ducked too late, and curses came from behind the hedge.-LotRI"

EDIT: Changed title of thread to "WITHDRAWN - Face Out of Sight" to reflect the new status of the proposal.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:54 pm "All on-guard cards are returned to owner's hands." sounds like a directive i.e. if to interpret it consistently with interpretation of texts of Gates of Morning or Doors of Night, it should be executed once when the card resolves. It is not an effect that works continuously, as long a card is in play.

I disagree. This should by default be a continuous effect, in line with other long-events, e.g. Long Winter.

I do not understand the historical decisions for Gates of Morning and Doors of Night. It seems to me that their ruling is inconsistent with other interpretations, but at least they have been specifically mentioned as such.

Long Winter causes actions activated by passive condition.
What would (where is) passive condition for "All on-guard cards are returned to owner's hands."?
Are returned if what? If they are?

For Doors of Night it is obvious why its actions are executed only once when the card resolves. If they would be executed continuously then part of effects of Moon could never work (at least until The Dragons and Peril Returned, to be fair).

Also the check for absence of Gates of Morning in text of Eyes of the Shadow would be useless if actions from Gates of Morning would be executed continuously.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:01 pm Long Winter causes actions activated by passive condition.
What would (where is) passive condition for "All on-guard cards are returned to owner's hands."?
Are returned if what? If they are?

Yes. What is the condition of Long Winter other than existence? There are no "if"s in its text either (other than Doors of Night, which isn't the point here).

Company without ranger moving through is passive condition for "return" action.
Doors of Night and in non-Haven site's site path is passive condition to "tap the site" action.

Long Winter card itself is in play unconditionally.

I am missing your point.
What you are comparing? Action from Face Out of Sight to Long Winter card?

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:56 pm I am missing your point.
What you are comparing? Action from Face Out of Sight to Long Winter card?

Yes. Long Winter (and I suspect nearly every permanent/long event other than Gates of Morning/Doors of Night, which have specific rulings to differ) checks for existence continually. Why should Face Out of Sight not?

Another exception: Sacrifice of Form should not continually discard the Wizard, but it is clearer that it has a conflicting purpose once it is already in play.

I think that only the texts that describe an action activated by condition, check for occurrence the condition continuously.
Some other set up an action in replace of other (Pallando The Soul-keeper, Ordered to Kill).

Theo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:17 pm Why should Face Out of Sight not?

For the same reason for which Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree does not discard factions continuously (or does it discard them continuously?).

Theo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:17 pm Another exception: Sacrifice of Form should not continually discard the Wizard, but it is clearer that it has a conflicting purpose once it is already in play.

From my point of view it is not exception.

This makes me think of The Under-roads:

The Under-roads wrote:The roll required for minions to move between adjacent Under-deeps sites is decreased by 3. Discards and prohibits the subsequent play of The Way is Shut.

Note the clause that explicitly lays out that the future play of The Way is Shut is prohibited. If 'discards The Way is Shut' was sufficient to be an ongoing effect while this long-event was in play, that part of the second sentence would not be necessary.

I will absolutely concede though that ICE was not a master of consistency, so the fact that someone thought to be specific here does not mean any card lacking such a statement wasn't potentially meant to function similarly.

The Under-roads is a short-event, so there is every reason to expect discarding to occur only when the card resolves.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:42 am For the same reason for which Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree does not discard factions continuously (or does it discard them continuously?).

I would think it does (and should)! Their farms and trees do not spring back overnight, so they should still be pretty pissed.

Theo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:44 amThe Under-roads is a short-event, so there is every reason to expect discarding to occur only when the card resolves.

Check again. The Under-roads is a long-event.

Theo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:44 am

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:42 am For the same reason for which Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree does not discard factions continuously (or does it discard them continuously?).

I would think it does (and should)! Their farms and trees do not spring back overnight, so they should still be pretty pissed.

I don't know - consider that People Diminished has the same 'discard all factions playable at the site' but then goes on to say that attempts against factions at any version of the site have a penalty. If any factions played there were continually discarded, there would be no point in having that effect on the card at all.

Theo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:44 am The Under-roads is a short-event, so there is every reason to expect discarding to occur only when the card resolves.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:42 am For the same reason for which Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree does not discard factions continuously (or does it discard them continuously?).

I would think it does (and should)! Their farms and trees do not spring back overnight, so they should still be pretty pissed.

So why returning to hand the factions according to the Long Grievous Siege should not be continuous effect (not an action executed once)?
And if so, what means -5 modifier to an influence attempts against the factions played at any version of a target site? Another incentive for playing a faction here in addition to returning the faction to hand?

Zakath wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:10 am

Theo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:44 amThe Under-roads is a short-event, so there is every reason to expect discarding to occur only when the card resolves.

Check again. The Under-roads is a long-event.

This is wrong in the spoiler list hosted by CoE. My apologies.

Theo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:10 pm

Zakath wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:10 am

Theo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:44 amThe Under-roads is a short-event, so there is every reason to expect discarding to occur only when the card resolves.

Check again. The Under-roads is a long-event.

This is wrong in the spoiler list hosted by CoE. My apologies.

No worries. Curious, though. The spoilers that the Dutch site hosts on meccg.net have it correct - I don't think I even realized that there were spoilers hosted by the CoE now. Wonder how that wound up being entered wrong?

I think I've figured out why I think Face Out of Sight should be in the same category as Long Winter / Snowstorm, etc, and NOT Long Grievous Siege, People Diminished, Sacrifice of Form, etc.

The first set of cards use passive verb tense. The second set of cards use the imperative verb tense.

I believe that passive verb tense indicates the creation of a passive condition (existence) triggering the action whenever existence is established. (Or additionally, apparently for Long Winter, a minimum of once/turn? Not sure why this was decided instead of only on establishment of existence.)

The exceptions for Gates of Morning, Doors of Nights, (and presumably Skies of Fire) are perhaps motivated by their inclusion of the "immediately" adverb within their verb phrase. I don't see any other long or permanent events with this structure.