Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

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the JabberwocK
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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by the JabberwocK »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:04 am
the Jabberwock wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:51 pm
I also think Secret Passage is perhaps a bad example to use? Does it matter in the case of Secret Passage whether it resolves before or after the Ahunt Dragon and Snowstorm? Either way, the hazard player may not play any hazard creatures on the company.
Obviously the hazard player may not play any hazard creatures in response to declaration(s) of effect of Secret Passage, attacks from Ahunts, "return" action from Snowstorm.
He may play them not sooner than in next chain of effects.

For resolution of effect of Secret Passage it only matters whether new site is [-me_rl-] at resolution, or not.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:57 pm
Proposed regulation tries to solve banal problem.
Because at the beginning of company's M/H phase both effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company AND actions caused by passive conditions may be declared, something must be decided about order of the declarations. Pro forma.
I think that you did not read it.
Yes, I did read it. WHY does the order matter (regarding Secret Passage) is what I am asking? Using your example with Secret Passage, Scorba Ahunt and Snowstorm in play. A company is traveling through wilderness to a Ruins and Lairs. The M/H phase begins:

Option 1:
- Effect of Secret Passage is declared.
- Effect of Snowstorm is declared.
- Effect of Scorba Ahunt is declared.
- Effect of Scorba Ahunt resolves... company faces attack (Secret Passage can't prevent this even if already resolved).
- Effect of Snowstorm resolves... company immediately returns to site of origin and M/H phase immediately ends.
RESULT: Company is back at their site of origin. There was no opportunity for hazard creatures to be played on the company.

Option 2:
- Effect of Scorba Ahunt is declared.
- Effect of Snowstorm is declared.
- Effect of Secret Passage is declared.
- Effect of Secret Passage resolves... opponent may only play Hazard Creatures keyed to the site on this company (but not yet of course).
- Effect of Snowstorm resolves... company immediately returns to site of origin and M/H phase immediately ends.
RESULT: Company is back at their site of origin. There was no opportunity for hazard creatures to be played on the company.

I could give additional Options, but you get the point. They all end in a scenario where no matter which order the 3 effects are declared and resolved, the company ends up back at their site of origin, and no hazard creatures may be played on the company. If other cards are played during the chain of effects of any of the above which would alter the outcomes (removing wilderness, removing Ruins and Lairs, etc.) it still won't change the fact that Secret Passage will always resolve before the hazard player can play hazard creatures on the company (which must start their own chain of effects after the 3 listed), which is the important point.

For practical gameplay purposes, what does the order matter in this example? What am I missing?

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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar »

I can provide yet another scenario:
Eyes of the Shadow, Radagast the Tamer are in play.
Company size of 3 with Wizard moves from Framsburg to Woodmen-town.

Does it matter whether hazard limit increasing from Eyes of the Shadow will be declared as first, or hazard limit increasing from Radagast the Tamer will be declared as first?

Probably not.

But still something must be decided about declaration of the actions.
the Jabberwock wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:09 am
For practical gameplay purposes, what does the order matter in this example? What am I missing?
I someone want to change a new site [-me_rl-] to some other type (to not enable Effect of Secret Passage for the rest of M/H phase) or I someone want to change a new site to [-me_rl-] (to enable Effect of Secret Passage for the rest of M/H phase), then he knows when exactly he may declare appropriate actions.

At beginning of company's M/H phase there may two types of declarations that compete to be first.
Actions caused by passive conditions (activated at beginning of the M/H phase).
Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company.

Chain of which of them should happen as first I do not know. Original rules do not care.
My proposal is a merging the two chains.

Interaction between them may be none or may be some (potentially some action caused by passive condition may change a type of site, or type of region).
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CDavis7M
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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by CDavis7M »

I'll read more of this later.

But: the revealing of the new site is an action, it is the same as the company-movement-action.

This same action is the passive condition that triggers the "end of m/h phase cards" and Ahunts (if region matches) and other cards.

They all get declared in resource players chosen order.

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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar »

I think that there is scenario where there is an interaction between effects played during the organization phase, that depend on the site or site path of a moving company and actions caused by passive conditions.

The scenario is the situation where card like Fair Travels in Wilderness has been played in organization phase and where at beginning of M/H phase there are passive conditions for actions that increase hazard limit.

Because effect of Fair Travels in Wilderness reduces HL to some minimum it may be advantageous for resource player to declare it before declarations of actions from Eyes of the Shadow or from Radagast the Tamer.
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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by CDavis7M »

The CRF on the "Organization Phase" states "Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is revealed." This statement is describing passive conditions. Fair Travels effects are triggered to be declared by the revealing of the site-path using the rules on passive conditions (e.g., Annotation 10). "Annotation 10: If more than one action is required to be the first action declared in a chain of effects, the player whose turn it is chooses the order in which they are declared." So, the rules do allow the Resource Player to set the order of declaration of the effects of Fair Travels in the Wilderness.

However, in the situation mentioned, the order of declaring Eyes of the Shadow and Radagast the Tamer with respect to Fair Travels may affect the resulting Hazard Limit. In which case, Annotation 26 applies and the order of declaration (even of the Fair Travels resource effect) is set by the Hazard Player. "Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in which they are to be applied." Annotation 26 is not limited to just hazard effects.

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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar »

Annotation 26 does not apply to a company's M/H phase. It applies to a player's M/H phase.
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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:51 pm
Annotation 26 does not apply to a company's M/H phase. It applies to a player's M/H phase.
ICE ruled against this interpretation. ICE ruled that there is no "player's" M/H phase: "Every m/h phase is associated with a specific company, there is no umbrella m/h phase that covers all of one player's m/h phases in one turn." This ICE ruling was made with respect to Annotation 26 and it further stated that the hazard player can select the order for the next company during the same turn because Annotation 26 does apply to the company's M/H phase (as there is no "player's M/H phase").

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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar »

To complete your theory you must decide which of effects are multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied and which are Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, because in either of the cases different player chooses order (in which they are applied, or in which they are declared).
And think something about interactions between them.
As I understand, the effect of Fair Travels belongs to the first category (is regulated by Annotation 26).

Good luck.
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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:49 am
To complete your theory ...
It's not my theory. It's ICE's ruling.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:49 am
To complete your theory you must decide which of effects are multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied and which are Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, because in either of the cases different player chooses order (in which they are applied, or in which they are declared).
And think something about interactions between them.
As I understand, the effect of Fair Travels belongs to the first category (is regulated by Annotation 26).

Good luck.
No luck needed. I already explained above.

The resource player decides the declaration-order of passive conditions per Annotation 10 unless "their net effect depends on the order they are applied," in which case the hazard player decides per Annotation 26. The effect of Fair Travels is triggered as a result of a passive condition and so Annotation 10 applies unless there are other effects triggered where "their net effect depends on the order they are applied."

Example: Radagast the Tamer and Fair Travels in the Wilderness are both triggered when a company having a size less than 5 reveals a site path from Western Mirkwood to Heart of Mirkwood. In this case, the Hazard player decides the order of declaration. If the company size is 5 is more, or if the site-path doesn't include a region in Mirkwood, or if there would be no difference in the net effect, then the Resource player decides the order of declaration of these effects.

It is not until the effects are triggered at the start of the M/H phase that the player needs to "decide which of effects are multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied and which are Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company."

So it's misleading to say "the effect of Fair Travels belongs to the first category (is regulated by Annotation 26)" because this is only true in rare circumstances when there are "multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied." Almost always, Fair Travels will belong to the "second category," and is regulated by Annotation 10.

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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:36 pm
Konrad Klar wrote: ↑22 Oct 2019, 08:49
To complete your theory ...
It's not my theory. It's ICE's ruling.
So to complete "your belief that it is not your theory".
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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Theo »

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:23 pm
ICE ruled that there is no "player's" M/H phase: "Every m/h phase is associated with a specific company, there is no umbrella m/h phase that covers all of one player's m/h phases in one turn." This ICE ruling was made with respect to Annotation 26 and it further stated that the hazard player can select the order for the next company during the same turn because Annotation 26 does apply to the company's M/H phase (as there is no "player's M/H phase").
Many of ICEs old rulings were overturned by themselves or on occasion CoE. In this case, CoE #74/75 ruled:
The "end of all movement/hazard phases" is still part of the overall movement/hazard phase, not part of the overall site phase.
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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:23 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:23 pm
ICE ruled that there is no "player's" M/H phase: "Every m/h phase is associated with a specific company, there is no umbrella m/h phase that covers all of one player's m/h phases in one turn." This ICE ruling was made with respect to Annotation 26 and it further stated that the hazard player can select the order for the next company during the same turn because Annotation 26 does apply to the company's M/H phase (as there is no "player's M/H phase").
Many of ICEs old rulings were overturned by themselves or on occasion CoE. In this case, CoE #74/75 ruled:
The "end of all movement/hazard phases" is still part of the overall movement/hazard phase, not part of the overall site phase.
CoE 74 and 75 did not overrule ICE's ruling that: "Every m/h phase is associated with a specific company, there is no umbrella m/h phase that covers all of one player's m/h phases in one turn. CoE 74 and 75 aren't on this topic (whether there is a player's M/H phase or only company M/H phases).

CoE 74 and 75 are simply describing the CRF statement: "Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts." CoE 74 and 75 are only describing effects that occur "at the end of all movement/hazard phases." There are only 2 such effects: (1) joining companies and (2) removing a site without a company (all the characters have been removed by hazards but on-guard cards may still be placed). Thus, CoE Q/A indicates that a character with Alone and Unadvised benefits from joining a company (for the corruption checks) only if his M/H phase was last.

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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Theo »

Sorry, I personally don't see how one could possibly interpret "the overall movement/hazard phase" as "all movement/hazard phases". There is a stark singular/plural discrepancy.
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Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar »

CRF, Errata (Cards), Secret Passage wrote:Does not work if the site type changes. See also Turn Sequence, Organization Phase,
Choosing a New Site.
As part of the proposal the above entry will be removed.
It is unclear anyway. Sometimes it may accidentally may be true (if at declaration of effect new site is [-me_rl-], and at resolution it has other type).

First post will be updated accordingly.
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