WITHDRAWN - Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Konrad Klar »

Bandobras Took wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:56 pm
As mentioned above, factions are not heroes. A faction may be a hero faction, but multiple factions are not called "heroes," they are called "hero factions." "Heroes" and "minions" must be referring to characters, and it is impossible for Wizards to have minion characters or RWs to have hero characters.
I know. This may be also symptom of the same (i.e. not corrected since MELE) error.

Thematically this translates to situation where a minion faction is not sensitive to presence of other factions in play if influenced by hero character under control of FW player and sensitive if influenced by Orc or Troll character under control of FW player (in the same company).

This may work. Of course. It just does not make a thematic sense.
But the fact is not exposed in minion vs minion game.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by CDavis7M »

The MEBA statement merely describes how factions are normally played as a resource.

-----

Wizard players can get Standard Modifications on minion factions (based on factions in play) when influencing an opponent's faction by ONLY using their own METW and "Using MELE with METW" rules, WITHOUT using any "Ringwraith only rule."

Say a Wizard player attempts to influence a Ringwraith opponent's Stone Troll faction while Black Trolls is in play. The "Using MELE with METW" rules say to use METW rules. The METW rules say "The influence check is modified by any of the faction’s applicable Standard Modifications (as given on the faction’s card)." So, the "Using MELE with METW" rules say to use the Standard Modifications as given on the minion faction.

The Wizard player can see " Standard Modifications:Black Trolls (+2)" as given on the Stone Troll card. The Wizard player is not confused about whether this might be a Race of a character because "Black Troll" is not listed as a race in any rulesbook. However, the Wizard player can see that "Black Trolls is a faction and it's in play.

Even ignoring and forgetting any "Ringwraith only rules" (as if that is their purpose), the Wizard player will look at the Standard Modifications as given on the Stone Troll faction per METW and "Using MELE with METW" rules. The Wizard player will see "Black Trolls (+2)", and Black Trolls is a card that is in play. The Wizard player may be confused if they should use minion Standard Modifications and so they look to the rules for Wizards v. Ringwraiths "Using MELE with METW". Those rules say to use the standard METW rules - "as given on the faction’s card). The "Using MELE with METW" rules only apply when influencing minion factions, and they say to use the Standard Modifications on the minion card. So a Wizard gets +2 to the influence attempt if Black Trolls is in play.

If Wizard's were not supposed to use the Standard Modifications on minion factions when influencing their opponents factions, the "Using MELE with METW" rules would say that. Instead they say to use the Standard Modifications as given on the minion faction. The "Using MELE with METW" would NOT tell a Wizard to use the Standard Modifications given on a minion faction if a Wizard could NEVER use modifications based on factions in play.

If Black Trolls is not in play, the modification is not applicable and the Wizard player's influence attempt is not modified by +2.

----

Any thematic considerations are mostly solved by the -5 modification required by "Using MELE with METW". Still, ICE didn't want to fix the simulation when the mechanics worked.

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Theo
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Theo »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:16 pm
Thematically this translates to situation where a minion faction is not sensitive to presence of other factions in play if influenced by hero character under control of FW player and sensitive if influenced by Orc or Troll character under control of FW player (in the same company).
There is no provision for FW Orcs and Trolls getting to use Ringwraith player's scope of Standard Modifications, even with last year's vote.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:16 pm
Thematically this translates to situation where a minion faction is not sensitive to presence of other factions in play if influenced by hero character under control of FW player and sensitive if influenced by Orc or Troll character under control of FW player (in the same company).
There is no provision for FW Orcs and Trolls getting to use Ringwraith player's scope of Standard Modifications, even with last year's vote.
I thought you agreed with Brandobras's interpretation.

What is your interpretation then?

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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Theo »

Which issue are you referring to?
Bandobras Took wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:03 pm
FW characters are hero with the exception of Orcs/Trolls, which don't appear to be either hero or minion (barring certain circumstances spelled out in MEWH).
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by CDavis7M »

Oops. I forgot that someone can't be bothered to read the rules, even the fundamental ones. For someone so adamant on the FW rules...


Anyway, the rule is:
Image

For a Fallen Wizard, all minion Characters, including Orcs and Trolls, are minions. But minion characters that are not Orc or Troll are considered to be heroes. Meaning that Orcs and Trolls are still minions (ie minion characters) under MEWH (and MELE with METW, which is incorporated in part at least, by MEWH).

FW companies with an Orc or Troll are an overt company but not a minion company (but count as minion companies for certain hazards).

Brandobras's interpretation is that minion characters have separate rules from hero characters when playing and and also (somehow) when influencing away opponent's factions. Under Brandobras's interpretation of the influencing rules, FW minions (Orcs and Trolls) would get to use Ringwraith player's Standard Modifications, even without the 2018 ARV.

----
2018 ARV

FW orc companies are "overt" but were not "minion" companies and so the rules on minion companies didn't apply to them. The 2018 ARV made FW overt companies act as minion companies for trophies and composition, but their orcs were always minion. The MELE Orc Scout rule wasn't mentioned in MEWH. But that MELE rule wasn't inconsistent in wording with the MEWH rules, while the other 2 points were.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Konrad Klar »

Theo wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:27 pm
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:16 pm
Thematically this translates to situation where a minion faction is not sensitive to presence of other factions in play if influenced by hero character under control of FW player and sensitive if influenced by Orc or Troll character under control of FW player (in the same company).
There is no provision for FW Orcs and Trolls getting to use Ringwraith player's scope of Standard Modifications, even with last year's vote.
I have additionally taken into account the Balrog clarification.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Bandobras Took »

Theo is correct.

A FW player may use both hero and minion characters.

However, there are some twists:
All of your non-Orc/Troll characters are considered to be hero characters.
So that rules out non-Orc/Trolls, and
Corruption checks for an Orc or Troll character are handled as if he were a minion character.
The above statement is impossible if FW Orc/Trolls are minions.

The conclusion is that "hero and minion characters" refers to card types for deck construction.

If there's any doubt, the Balrog Rules Summary should help:
Characters in Wizard decks are called heroes, and characters in Ringwraith decks are called minions.
MEWH does not define orcs/trolls as minion in the special rules for Orcs/Trolls, and even indirectly indicates that they are not such, and that companies with orcs/trolls are not minion. Therefore, FW Orcs/Trolls are neither heroes nor minions.

Fun side note:
CRF, Fallen Wizards wrote:Fallen-wizards use Ringwraith rules for agents.
One wonders why they didn't add "Fallen-wizards use Ringwraith rules for Orcs/Trolls?" Could it be that ICE intended Orcs and Trolls to be treated differently when played by a FW? Weird. It's almost like FWs don't get to use whatever RW rules they want by default, regardless of what color the card happens to be . . .
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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CDavis7M
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by CDavis7M »

Bandobras Took wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:15 pm
Corruption checks for an Orc or Troll character are handled as if he were a minion character.
The above statement is impossible if FW Orc/Trolls are minions.
...
MEWH does not define orcs/trolls as minion in the special rules for Orcs/Trolls, and even indirectly indicates that they are not such, and that companies with orcs/trolls are not minion. Therefore, FW Orcs/Trolls are neither heroes nor minions.
The statement on corruption is a little confusing. It means to say "are handled as if he were a Ringwraith player's character." The rules on tapping are rules to use when playing a Ringwraith. The corruption rules are not specific to minion characters - they are specific to Ringwraith players.

The MEWH rule on characters acknowledges that Orcs and Trolls are minion characters. No confusion about a rule on corruption overrules the character rules on characters. Let's use reason.
ICE Digest 43 wrote:>I thought a FW company containing Orcs and Trolls was only overt, but
>not minion?
The company is overt, but the character is a minion.
Your reasoning for why a Fallen Wizard's Orcs and Trolls are not minion characters illuminates your reasoning on Influencing an Opponent's faction.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Konrad Klar »

Bandobras Took wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:15 pm
MEWH does not define orcs/trolls as minion in the special rules for Orcs/Trolls, and even indirectly indicates that they are not such, and that companies with orcs/trolls are not minion. Therefore, FW Orcs/Trolls are neither heroes nor minions.
Padding Feet wrote:Playable during the site phase on a lone scout minion (no other character or allies in his company) at the same site as a hero company containing a Hobbit. Also playable on a lone minion controlling Stinker (discard this card if Stinker leaves the company). If during the a following site phase target character is at the same site as the Hobbit, tap this card (site must be entered). This card never untaps. If then during a following site phase, target character is at the same site as the Hobbit, invert this card (rotate it 180ř) (site must be entered). If inverted, this card may be stored at a Darkhaven [-me_dha-] -only if stored do you receive its marshalling points.
CRF, Errata (Cards), Padding Feet wrote:@ Card Erratum: Replace the first sentence with: "Playable during the site phase on a
lone scout minion (no other characters or allies in his company) at the same site as an
opponent hero company containing a hobbit."
What is purpose of the errata if not ruling out the easy MP scored by FW player who easily can keep two companies at the same Wizardhaven?

But if there are no minion characters under control of FW player, the card cannot be played by him.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Bandobras Took »

ICE Digest 43 wrote:
>I thought a FW company containing Orcs and Trolls was only overt, but
>not minion?
The company is overt, but the character is a minion.
That's the kind of statement of ICE intent we need, though I would prefer to see whatever sparked that particular question; it sounds like part of an ongoing conversation.
What is purpose of the errata if not ruling out the easy MP scored by FW player who easily can keep two companies at the same Wizardhaven?
It wouldn't be the first time ICE tripped over themselves issuing errata and clarifications:
A Short Rest wrote:This card only allows the extra card draw for moving companies that actually have a site path. It cannot be used with Under-deeps movement, or special movement cards like Belegaer.
Company may move from a site of origin in one of the following regions to a new site in one of the following regions: Lindon, Elven Coast, Eriadoran Coast, Andrast Coast, Bay of Belfalas, Mouths of the Anduin, Enedhwaith, Old Pukel-land, Andrast, Anfalas, Belfalas, Lebennin, and Harondor. The site path is [ccc] and the hazard limit is decreased by two to a minimum of two.
The phrase "It cannot be used . . . with special movement cards like Belegaer" is unrelated to the first sentence, but looking at just the erratum, it suggests that there is no site path when using Belegaer.

The purpose would be to prevent the situation you described, but the rules do not currently support that FW Orcs/Trolls are minion. ICE 43 is an indication that the rules should be updated (and would be more so if we knew what "the character" actually refers to).

Edit: Though it's interesting that we've done the exact opposite of ICE's intent -- we made the companies minion while failing to make the characters minion. :)
Last edited by Bandobras Took on Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Konrad Klar »

Covetous Thoughts wrote:Corruption. Playable only on a minion. At the end of each of his turns, target minion makes a corruption check for each item his company bears that he does not bear. For each check, modify the roll by subtracting the corruption of that item. During his organization phase, the minion may tap to attempt to remove this card by making a roll (drawing a #)-if the result is greater than 5, discard this card. Cannot be duplicated on a given minion.
Seems like "only" is intentional.
So FW Player's Orcs or Trolls are immune to this corruption?

Underline mine.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Bandobras Took »

As the rules are currently written, yes. ICE's intention doesn't seem to have been that (pending further information), but intention is not the same thing as what is written.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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CDavis7M
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by CDavis7M »

And what part of the rules actually make an Orc or Troll minion character lose their minion status? The MEWH section on characters clearly indicates that minions are minions.

Do your Orcs change color when you announce your Fallen Wizard? Are they no longer rusted purple?

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CDavis7M
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by CDavis7M »

Bandobras Took wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:20 pm
ICE Digest 43 wrote:
>I thought a FW company containing Orcs and Trolls was only overt, but
>not minion?
The company is overt, but the character is a minion.
That's the kind of statement of ICE intent we need, though I would prefer to see whatever sparked that particular question; it sounds like part of an ongoing conversation.
"Intent"? There is no issue of intent being unclear here.

This question was related to Padding Feet, the same issue Konrad recognized.

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