WITHDRAWN - Standard Modifications (overhaul)

[Konrad Klar]

I think that ICE, as usually, failed to address an issue precisely.

Roll the dice, add the character's unused direct influence, any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or the other factions in play (minions), (. . .)

Whether to interpret "(heroes)", "(minions)" as a players of the alignment, or as a characters of the alignment, above rule fails.
In first case a FW is not covered, in second case Radagast's Black Bird is not covered and additionally it leads to conclusion that for Orcs and Trolls characters under control of FW Standard Modifications behave differently that for hero characters under control of FW.

"Roll the dice, add the character's unused direct influence, any standard modifications for the character's race (against hero faction) or the other factions in play (against minion faction), (. . .)"

would make a sense.

[Bandobras Took]

Faction cards are not influence check modifier cards. A revealed faction is neither played nor are its Standard Modifications an ability, so they could not fit into the "other modifications" bullet. (underline mine) Standard Modifications on a faction card apply when influencing that card (under either the second bullet for influencing an opponent's faction, or the Bringing A Faction Card Into Play rules).

So if I influence my opponent's Men of Lamedon, I cannot put my own copy of Men of Lamedon under Sentinels of Numenor because I didn't actually influence my copy -- just his. Correct?

[Bandobras Took]

I think that ICE, as usually, failed to address an issue precisely.

Roll the dice, add the character's unused direct influence, any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or the other factions in play (minions), (. . .)

Whether to interpret "(heroes)", "(minions)" as a players of the alignment, or as a characters of the alignment, above rule fails.
In first case a FW is not covered

Why not?

[Konrad Klar]

I think that ICE, as usually, failed to address an issue precisely.

Roll the dice, add the character's unused direct influence, any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or the other factions in play (minions), (. . .)

Whether to interpret "(heroes)", "(minions)" as a players of the alignment, or as a characters of the alignment, above rule fails.
In first case a FW is not covered

Why not?

Fallen-wizard player is not a hero player. Nor minion player.

[Konrad Klar]

So if I influence my opponent's Men of Lamedon, I cannot put my own copy of Men of Lamedon under Sentinels of Numenor because I didn't actually influence my copy -- just his. Correct?

I think that you are correct. Sentinels of Numenor says about influenced factions, not about played factions.
(good target for errata)

[Konrad Klar]

Second thought.
Influenced is a faction. Placed is a faction card.
If you are successfully influenced an opponent's faction, you can play your faction card (if it was revealed).
(errata is not necessary)

[Bandobras Took]

Fallen-wizard player is not a hero player. Nor minion player.

Now I've got a new thought: where are those defined?

[Konrad Klar]

The following formats are allowed for sanctioned tournament play. Other formats will
require a written proposal, as outlined above. Hero alignment includes Wizard
players. Minion alignment includes Ringwraith, Sauron, and Balrog players. Fallenwizard
alignment includes Fallen-wizard players. As new avatars come out in future
expansions, they will specify to which alignment the avatars belong.

[Bandobras Took]

I'm not certain that's of universal application, but it does add another ugly lair to what is rapidly becoming a mess.

[Konrad Klar]

Maybe not "universal application", but if so, on what basis to determine an alignment of Balrog player?
Maybe he should have "balrog alignment", not "minion alignment"?

[Bandobras Took]

Maybe not "universal application", but if so, on what basis to determine an alignment of Balrog player?
Maybe he should have "balrog alignment", not "minion alignment"?

I assumed that Balrog inherited minion the same way FWs inherited hero. ("A Balrog acts as a RW player," "assume that your FW is a METW 'Wizard'.")

[Theo]

Faction cards are not influence check modifier cards. A revealed faction is neither played nor are its Standard Modifications an ability, so they could not fit into the "other modifications" bullet. (underline mine) Standard Modifications on a faction card apply when influencing that card (under either the second bullet for influencing an opponent's faction, or the Bringing A Faction Card Into Play rules).

So if I influence my opponent's Men of Lamedon, I cannot put my own copy of Men of Lamedon under Sentinels of Numenor because I didn't actually influence my copy -- just his. Correct?

"Place any such faction" wording on Sentinels of Numenor does not specify that it must be the faction card that was influenced. Influencing any version of the faction would count as the faction having been influenced, so as long as Sentinels of Numenor was in play when opponent's faction was influenced a faction revealed to assist in the attempt would be placed under Sentinels.

[Konrad Klar]

"A Balrog acts as a RW player"
Avatar acting as a player. Hmm...
"A Balrog player acts as a RW player" or "A Balrog acts as a Ringwright" would make a more of sense.

"assume that your FW is a METW 'Wizard'.
Card's references to a Wizard (and METW rules not superseded by WH rules too) apply to Fallen-wizard.
But someones Wizards (or Fallen-wizard) is not Wizard player (or FW player), obviously.

[Bandobras Took]

Faction cards are not influence check modifier cards. A revealed faction is neither played nor are its Standard Modifications an ability, so they could not fit into the "other modifications" bullet. (underline mine) Standard Modifications on a faction card apply when influencing that card (under either the second bullet for influencing an opponent's faction, or the Bringing A Faction Card Into Play rules).

So if I influence my opponent's Men of Lamedon, I cannot put my own copy of Men of Lamedon under Sentinels of Numenor because I didn't actually influence my copy -- just his. Correct?

"Place any such faction" wording on Sentinels of Numenor does not specify that it must be the faction card that was influenced. Influencing any version of the faction would count as the faction having been influenced, so as long as Sentinels of Numenor was in play when opponent's faction was influenced a faction revealed to assist in the attempt would be placed under Sentinels.

That seems to contradict what you stated previously:

Standard Modifications on a faction card apply when influencing that card

If I am not influencing my own copy of the faction, then it can't be one of the "such factions" I successfully influence, because I am not influencing them -- I am influencing my opponent's copy of them.

[Bandobras Took]

But someones Wizards (or Fallen-wizard) is not Wizard player (or FW player), obviously.

Wizard: Each player plays one of the five Wizards sent to Middle-earth to unite and counsel the Free Peoples.

We don't play Frodo or Bergil or Brand. By rule, the player is the Wizard.