Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Post by Theo »

I would like a counter-clarification issued forThrall of the Voice to assuage the previous confusion from prominent incorrect postings regarding the use of multiple copies of the card concurrently on the same character.
(Separately, there are additional aspects of this card that may need attention; for example. Perhaps more proposals to come!)

Original rules text:
Thrall of the Voice wrote:Instead of a normal character, during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind. Place this card with the character. -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1. Such a character may also be in your starting company.
Confusion comes from (underline mine):
meccg.net CRF claiming CoE wrote:Can be duplicated on the play of a given character, but that does not lift the maximum of 6 mind.
However, scouring the CoE digests (up to 119) on meccg.net I cannot find any corroboration of the underlined portion, but only the following reference to concurrent uses of Thrall of the Voice on the same character.
CoE22 wrote:If i have Glorfindel II and I play him with 3 thrall of the voice as initial character or also play him from my hand is that valid ?
*** No, Thrall of the Voice requires that the character has at most 6 mind.
This response has nothing to reinforce that 3x Thrall of the Voice is allowed, only an omission that it specifically wouldn’t be allowed. To my judgement, such an omission should not be taken as ruling the underlined portion in light of inclusion being unnecessary given the point actually made.

More to the point, the phrase “Instead of a normal character” is a replacement effect. The play allowed by Thrall of the Voice has no reason to be considered normal, since it is instead of the normal.

Thus I deem the underlined statement inaccurate and would like to see an official counter-clarification issued to that effect, since there is no counter-CRF on the official Council of Elrond site to gainsay the meccg.net claim. I suggest highlighting that the wording (underline mine) “Instead of a normal character” causes the character brought into play to not be normally played any more, thus preventing a second concurrent Thrall of the Voice bring-into-play effect from being able to resolve successfully.

[edit: changed title to start with card name]
Last edited by Theo on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2995
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Clarification: Thrall of the Voice, multiple on character

Post by Bandobras Took »

Thrall has no phrase forbidding duplication.

Each Thrall can be played with a character because the one character you bring in instead of a normal character fulfills the requirement of each individual Thrall card.

This is seen simply from the fact that Thrall can be used during the draft, which doesn't happen during the organization phase and wherein characters are simply revealed, not played.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3263
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Re: Clarification: Thrall of the Voice, multiple on character

Post by Konrad Klar »

I think that during draft a characters (and other cards revealed as though they were characters) cards are revealed, and then (after verifying uniqueness, duplication conflicts) eventually played.
Thrall of the Voice, or Hidden Haven for instance must be in play to have an effect on play.

Regardless of above I agree with the statement:
Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:33 pm
Thrall has no phrase forbidding duplication.
Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:33 pm
Each Thrall can be played with a character because the one character you bring in instead of a normal character fulfills the requirement of each individual Thrall card.
I would say:
Each Thrall can be placed with a character because the one character you bring in instead of a normal character fulfills the requirement of each individual Thrall card.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Clarification: Thrall of the Voice, multiple on character

Post by Theo »

I would agree if you interpret "Place this card with the character" as referring to any character that you bring into play from any Thrall bring-into-play effect. But the card is not phrased as, "Place this card with such a character." In the context of the card, "the character" refers to the character from the previous sentence, that is, the character brought into play from this Thrall bring-into-play effect. Further, multiple Thralls may not create the same bring-into-play effect in a turn because they are a replacement; if you do one, then you've already replaced the normal effect that the other would need.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3263
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Re: Clarification: Thrall of the Voice, multiple on character

Post by Konrad Klar »

Theo wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:24 pm
I would agree if you interpret "Place this card with the character" as referring to any character that you bring into play from any Thrall bring-into-play effect. But the card is not phrased as, "Place this card with such a character." In the context of the card, "the character" refers to the character from the previous sentence, that is, the character brought into play from this Thrall bring-into-play effect. Further, multiple Thralls may not create the same bring-into-play effect in a turn because they are a replacement; if you do one, then you've already replaced the normal effect that the other would need.
Right.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
the JabberwocK
Council Chairman
Posts: 1152
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Post by the JabberwocK »

Theo wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:04 am
However, scouring the CoE digests (up to 119) on meccg.net I cannot find any corroboration of the underlined portion, but only the following reference to concurrent uses of Thrall of the Voice on the same character.
So we would be issuing a possible counter-clarification to a NetRep ruling that doesn't exist? :?

I otherwise agree with your opinion.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Post by Theo »

Alternatively, CoE hosts their own copy of the CRF with such offenders omitted (see also http://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewto ... =16&t=2841). :P
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!

User avatar
the JabberwocK
Council Chairman
Posts: 1152
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Post by the JabberwocK »

Theo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:17 am
Alternatively, CoE hosts their own copy of the CRF with such offenders omitted. :P
Indeed, however, the new URD being constructed will incorporate most of the CRF, as well as ICE Digests and NetRep rulings. So in theory this should take care of the issue.

Still, would be nice to have a cleaned up, checked for accuracy CRF listed on the CoE website as well, if someone was willing and able to put in the time to make it happen.

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Post by CDavis7M »

Can you provide an example of playing multiple Thralls on one character and explain how they all would work.

Thanks.

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2995
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Post by Bandobras Took »

Thrall isn't played on a character.

Thrall is a permanent event which allows you to use an alternate means of bringing a characters into play. Thrall is then placed with that character.

The argument is that since the character brought into play by alternate means fulfills the condition of all three Thralls, all three may be placed with the character, and apply their affect of -1 mind.

Likewise if used to reveal a starting character.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Post by CDavis7M »

Bandobras Took wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:26 pm
The argument is that since the character brought into play by alternate means fulfills the condition of all three Thralls, all three may be placed with the character, and apply their affect of -1 mind.
But the placing-action of Thrall is not a passive condition that is triggered by the play of a character. There is no outside action that is the trigger for the placing action. The placing action is just a continuation of the character-playing-effects of Thrall.

If there was a character target as a passive condition to be triggered for the placing action (e.g., "if a character is played..."), then I would agree that all 3 could be triggered at once and placed all on the same character.

But since the effect of the 1st copy of Thrall is used to bring the first character into play, and the effect of the 2nd copy of Thrall is not used to bring the first character into play, then I don't see how "Place this card with the character (that was played)" could be performed by the 2nd copy, since the playing of the 2nd character has not happened yet (we are only talking about 1 character being brought into play).

Open to the Summons works the same as far as the placement effect.

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2995
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Post by Bandobras Took »

Using one Thrall to bring the character into play does not necessarily preclude using the others to bring that character into play. All three Thralls allow you to bring in an alternate character according to specific criteria. If you do so, place Thrall with the character.

Thus, the suggestion of a clarification, as this one can go both ways. The NetRep team back in the day came down on one side of the question, Theo's proposal to change it to the other side.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Post by CDavis7M »

Putting aside the issue of whether or not Thrall let's you play more than 1 character a turn, a 2nd copy of Thrall cannot even be played at all unless it brings a 2nd character into play.

Read the rules on playing cards and events again.

Thrall cannot be played to just sit around like some permanent events. It lists actions, which are immediately implemented. The only lasting effect is the -1 mind which depends on the other character playing and the placing actions. Thrall is a permanent event due to the need to maintain the -1 mind effect.

Thrall does not have a passive condition (eg if a character is played). And it does not have some effect that can be declared later by some active condition. All other permanent events that can just sit around have these features. These are their "effect on the game" - something can happen when the passive/activr conditions are satisfied. In contrast, "You may play" is an immediate action. There is no way to declare it later on by satisfying some active or passive condition. All of its actions must be immediately implemented or else it would be played for no effect, and so cannot be played.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3263
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Re: Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:30 pm
Thrall cannot be played to just sit around.
It can and must.
If it would not just sit around FW player could not play six mind character.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:27 pm
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:30 pm
Thrall cannot be played to just sit around.
It can and must.
If it would not just sit around FW player could not play six mind character.
When you play Thrall, which must be during the organization phase, the character-playing-action is immediately declared:

"Instead of a normal  character, during your organization  phase  you  may bring into play one character  (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind."

Since it is during the organization phase and no rolls are required, there is no issue of timing. When this character playing action is resolved, you can play a 6 mind character.

If the character playing action were to happen later, the card would indicate some condition for declaring the action. It does not include any active/passive conditions for the character playing action. So the action is not taken later. Instead it is immediately effective as the rules on permanent events state.

Image

Point 3). Most permanent events are OK because describe some way to trigger their effects (Thrall of the Voice's effects are not triggered). However, cards that are playable "on" or "with" an entity may not be OK to just be played because some entity is required. You can't play a corruption card if there is no charater to play it on. You can't play Thrall if there is no character to place it with. If there is no character, there is no effect on the game because there is no action to be triggered later.

Thrall of the Voice provides no way to trigger the play of the character. There is no passive condition established. And there is no active condition that the player can choose to take. Instead, the character-playing-action resolves and the character is played. If the character is not played, then Thrall may not be played.

And certainly Thrall of the Voice can't be placed on a character that was not played with it. "Place this card with the character." "The character" must be the same character you brought into play ("bring into play one character").

Post Reply

Return to “2019 Annual Rules Vote - Submissions”