Passive Conditions

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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CDavis7M
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Lure of Creation is triggered at the end of the company's movement/hazard phase. Both Starting a M/H phase and Ending a M/H phase are actions.

The CRF defines the end of the M/H as removing the site of origin and resetting hand size, which are defined to happen at the same time.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:32 pm The CRF defines the end of the M/H as removing the site of origin and resetting hand size, which are defined to happen at the same time.
Not true (where?)
True like statement that end-of-turn phase is end of turn.
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:32 pm Both Starting a M/H phase and Ending a M/H phase are actions.
Similarly to end of turn that triggers ccs from Covetous Thoughts?
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:40 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:32 pm The CRF defines the end of the M/H as removing the site of origin and resetting hand size, which are defined to happen at the same time.
Not true (where?)
Here:
CRF, turn, M/H, general wrote:
  • Annotation 25: A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase. During this period a company is considered to be en route between sites and not at any site.
  • Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.
  • Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
  • Annotation 25b: Players drawing cards when a new site is revealed is synonymous with the resolution of the new site being revealed. It happens immediately, not in the following chain of effects.
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:40 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:32 pm Both Starting a M/H phase and Ending a M/H phase are actions.
Similarly to end of turn that triggers ccs from Covetous Thoughts?
Yes. This statement is describing triggering actions as a result of passive conditions.
CFF, turn, EoT wrote:End-of-turn effects are triggered by the ending of the End-of-Turn phase. Once both players are done with all actions in the End-of-Turn phase, all End-of-Turn effects are declared and resolved in the order chosen by the current player. No further actions may be declared that turn.
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An example. I wish I had seen this sooner.

"The act of flipping over the second company's site card establishes the passive condition."

How about that trick ring test though?

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Konrad Klar
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Each phase has its beginning and its end in which the phase lasts.
Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase.
So so-called end of movement/hazard phase must happen before.

You may deny if you want and then you may logically conclude that ccs from Lure of Nature never happen because at the end of movement/hazard phase a company has no path.
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CDavis7M
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Lure of Nature
Card Erratum: Replace "at the end of each movement/hazard phase" with "after all other hazards have been played."

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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:49 pm
Lure of Nature
Card Erratum: Replace "at the end of each movement/hazard phase" with "after all other hazards have been played."

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You may deny that the rules work if you want and then you may create 67 posts in this subforum.
Significant change, especially if to read the rest of entry for Lure of Nature.
Corruption checks from Lure of Nature do not
trigger if its bearer's company returns to its site of origin. The corruption checks
caused by Lure of Nature happen at the end of the afflicted character's movement/
hazard phase. Of course, the character's player can play resources to modify the
corruption checks. The hazard player is allowed to play hazards in response, if the
hazard player has enough hazard limit remaining. Hazards so played must directly
affect the corruption checks caused by Lure of Nature. The hazard player can play no
other hazards, no creature, no new corruption cards, etc.
BTW.
[advertisement]
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 144&t=3392
has been projected to be compliant with the CRF entry Lure of Nature.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:49 pm You may deny that the rules work if you want and then you may create 67 posts in this subforum.
To Satisfy the Questioner.
Many of the 67 posts in this subforum would not be written if not your objections expressed in the same subforum.
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CDavis7M
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We will have peace. Yes, we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the words of your dark master to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar and a corrupter of our Rules. You hold your hand and I perceive only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not, for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine Annotations for your own profit as you desired.
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Konrad Klar
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Proposed regulations:

"1.
If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in a chain of effects, which, if necessary, immediately follows the chain of effects producing the passive condition.

2.
Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the
chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive
condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in
its own chain of effects, or the action has no effect. Note that actions in the strike
sequence follow a different set of rules.
If a passive condition is an action or change of state that then it is not checked both at declaration and at the resolution then it is not checked at the resolution of action caused by the condition.

3.
Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the
chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive
condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in
its own chain of effects, or the action has no effect. Note that actions in the strike
sequence follow a different set of rules.
If a passive condition is an action or change of state then it is not checked both at declaration and at the resolution of action caused by the condition.

A card that states the an action happens as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the
action resolves, or else the action has no effect."

Recent changes are underlined.
Reasoning behind the changes:
It may not be said that e.g. becoming wounded is an action. It is a result of other action.
At the same time becoming wounded is not state (status "wounded" is state). It is change of state.
A change of state (not sate itself) is not something that would exist continuously. It may be only trigger.
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Theo
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I think it still needs more generalization. "Is successful" and "Is defeated" are concepts that carry with them other effects, but I do not think of them as changes of state; there is no "not yet successful or defeated or ineffectual" prior state (although perhaps a "being resolved" state would suffice?).
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Konrad Klar
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Proposed regulations:

"1.
If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in a chain of effects, which, if necessary, immediately follows the chain of effects producing the passive condition.

2.
Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the
chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive
condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in
its own chain of effects, or the action has no effect. Note that actions in the strike
sequence follow a different set of rules.
If a passive condition is an action, its result, or change of state then it is not checked both at declaration and at the resolution then it is not checked at the resolution of action caused by the condition.

3.
Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the
chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive
condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in
its own chain of effects, or the action has no effect. Note that actions in the strike
sequence follow a different set of rules.
If a passive condition is an action, its result, or change of state then it is not checked both at declaration and at the resolution of action caused by the condition.

A card that states the an action happens as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the
action resolves, or else the action has no effect."

Recent changes are underlined.
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CDavis7M
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I still disagree with the proposal because, most importantly, there is no actual problem to be solved here. No gameplay issue was ever given as an example. And also, I disagree with most of the premises.
Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:48 pm Not all passive conditions are produced inside of a chain of effects.
End of phase that may be passive condition never happens in chain of effects.
Some other passive conditions sometimes are produced inside of chain of effects, sometimes not. E.g. passive condition like a company moving through certain regions may be produced at the start of the company's M/H phase, before declaration of any action.
Passive Conditions does not say what then.
I disagree. The end of phase happens inside of a chain of effects. It is an activity in the game and so it is an action that is resolved in a chain of effects.

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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:48 pm 2.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Passive Conditions wrote:Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the
chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive
condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in
its own chain of effects, or the action is canceled.
Note that actions in the strike
sequence follow a different set of rules.
Some passive conditions are not a states (example of states: "some card is in play", "company is moving through certain regions") that may persist in play by some time. Some are an actions that happen momentarily (for example a becoming wounded - character may be in wounded state by some time, but if he becomes wounded at some point in some chain of effects, he will not still become wounded at declaration of action from Despair of Heart, nor at its resolution).
Actions occurring as a result of wounding a characters is not a good example of passive conditions because this issue is covered by the Strike Sequence rules as well.

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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:48 pm
3.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Passive Conditions wrote:Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the
chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive
condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in
its own chain of effects, or the action is canceled. Note that actions in the strike
sequence follow a different set of rules.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Passive Conditions wrote:A card causing an action as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the
action resolves, or else the action is canceled.
Phrase "the action is canceled" is confusing. Actually the action does not resolve.
"the action is canceled" may be certainly confusing if the action is an attack. Reader may be under impression that because "an attack has been canceled" the attack has been faced, and this may have an impact on playability of other card. Actually the attack just did not happen.

Proposed regulation:

Changing both occurrences of "the action is canceled" with "the action does not resolve".
This point is OK. But I have not seen anyone confused about this issue. Probably because the issue is clear from the rules on events and timing.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:34 am Actions occurring as a result of wounding a characters is not a good example of passive conditions because this issue is covered by the Strike Sequence rules as well.
Character may become wounded also outside of Strike Sequence.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:34 am I still disagree with the proposal because, most importantly, there is no actual problem to be solved here. No gameplay issue was ever given as an example. And also, I disagree with most of the premises.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:34 am Actions occurring as a result of wounding a characters is not a good example of passive conditions because this issue is covered by the Strike Sequence rules as well.
Unexpectedly you made good point.
Interaction of special actions called by strike with actions caused by passive conditions.
In CvCC defending player and player proceeding his turn are not necessarily the same player, so there may be conflict of who decides about an order of declarations of the actions.
But maybe there is no actual problem to be solved here.*

*) honorary Konrad Klar's award for discovering gameplay issue that is example of the problem.
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CDavis7M
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Give an example. I see no issue with CvCC. If multiple effects would trigger because of a wounded character, Annotation 26 would cover that.
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