This is a term I didn't see mentioned here or in any of the previous discussion.
ICE Digest 88 wrote:No distinction exists because there is no "turn's movement/hazard phase." Every m/h phase is associated with a specific company, there is no umbrella m/h phase that covers all of one player's m/h phases in one turn.
. . .
The company is not at the site until their site phase. Just as there is no umbrella m/h phase, there is no umbrella site phase.
Just because a company is no longer "en route" to their site does not mean they are "at the site." At the very least we can tell this by the naming of the phases -- while a company is no longer "moving" at the end of the "movement phase" that does not mean that they can be "at the site" until the company's "site" phase.
ICE Digest 60 wrote:Think about it. There is one site phase for each company. If there is no company, there is no site phase.
Of course, this is not clear from the original rules. But it is clear from the ICE Digests and from the Annotations 25, 25a, and 25b. Annotations 25a and 25b were added AFTER
the MELE rulesbook was published. This is why there are discrepancies between the two.
Update: here are the updates to annotation 25 that were made after MELE was released since it seems no one mentioned them before:
CRF, Turn, M/H, general wrote:
- Annotation 25: A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase. During this period a company is considered to be en route between sites and not at any site.
- Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
- Annotation 25b: Players drawing cards when a new site is revealed is synonymous with the resolution of the new site being revealed. It happens immediately, not in the following chain of effects.
This is in the CRF too but I'm not sure when it was added:
- Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.
Yes, it is weird that a company has left their site of origin, stopped moving, but is not yet "at" their site. But this is just a construct of the game that lets a player have multiple companies doing different things.
Why is there a discrepancy with the rules?
I think that issues with the rules arose at tournaments, some rulings were made to promote "fair play," and these rulings were put into the rules as Annotations AFTER
MELE was released.. These Annotations are found in the "Companion" books. According to the Companion, an errata means the text is wrong and a clarification means the text is ambiguous. So these Annotations are neither errata (they do not change specific text in the rulesbook) nor are they clarifications (description of some specific text), but they are actually adding new additional statements to the rules (which can sometimes conflict with the original rules as we see).
So, these Annotations could be considered Errata because they actually DID change the rules. But I think that ICE wanted to pretend that they were not changes to the rules.
And there are many many more ICE Digests giving the same ruling again, and again, and again, and again.
ICE Digest 9 wrote:>From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>
>1) I quote from CRF8(Turn Sequence, Site Phase, General):
>@ A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they
>have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an
>automatic-attack. Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it,
>although cancelling does.
>Is this ruling meant to apply only to resources that must be played during
>the site phase or what?
It applies to anything done during the site phase.
>Or does it supersede, "Resource short-events and permanent-events can be
>played at any time during your turn --- as limited by specific card text."
>(CLARIFICATION top of p. 41 MELE rules); and, "Resource events generally do
>not require an untapped site nor that the automatic attack to (sic) be
>faced. This may vary based upon specific card text."
>(First paragraph p.42 MELE rules)?
Events don't generally require facing the automatic attack, because they
can be played outside the site phase. Try p.70: (Note - this is p. 70 in METW, or 94 in MELE)
"In the order you decide ... each of your companies at an untapped site
"* do nothing *or*
"follow this procedure:
"1)You decide to enter and explore the site
"2)If the site has an automatic-attack, it attacks the company"
ICE Digest 60 wrote:In article <PITZ.98Ma...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de>,
pi...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Michael Pitz ) wrote:
> In article <ichabod-2603...@dialin1115.cstone.net>
ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien) writes:
> You can't play We Have Come to Kill during the site phase before the
> automatic-attack is faced. That's the rules. You can't do anything
> during the site phase before the automatic-attack is faced, unless
> it involves facing the automatic-attack. Therefore, you can't bring
> a character into play with WHCtK during the site phase if no one
> else is at the site, since you can never face the automatic-attack
> before doing so.
> The Rules say:
> "A company (!) may not play any resource during the site phase until they have
> faced all automatic-attacks"
> But there is no company!
> And We Have Come To Kill is not played by a company.
It does not matter. You may not play anything during a site phase, unless
the company whose site phase it is has entered the site and thus faced
Think about it. There is one site phase for each company. If there
is no company, there is no site phase.
> This would include I cannot play, say a Gates of
> Morning, if I have faced at least one automatic attack at one site.
I think you mean 'if I have *not* faced at least one...' In that case
it is true. You must have faced an automatic attack to play Gates
of Morning during the site phase.
> So, I cannot play a Marvel's Told, which I had just drawn, to remove a Despair
> of The Heart because I don't want to make a corruption check when a character
> becomes wouded by the automatick attack?
> So, I cannot play Dark Tryst in the site phase to draw more cards and to
> after that if I will enter the site? (Can be nice while waiting at a dragon's
> lair if you're waiting for your hoard item).
> Or, how about that:
> I have a Ringwraith at a Darkhaven. He enters the site (no auto), THEN "he"
> plays We Have Come To Kill.
> After that, the company (of one character) which has just come into play
> will face their automatick attack if they want to play something.
That only works if you bring the character into play at the site with
the Ringwraith. Since the character is joining a company, that company
must have faced the automatic attack that turn.
ICE Digest 25 wrote:>4) Concerning "Vile Fumes", is the Gas attack which replaces the site's
>normal auto-attacks, itself considered an auto-attack?
>Can VF be discarded for effect during the site phase before the normal
>auto-attack is faced?
No, it does not directly affect the automatic-attack.
ICE Digest 38 wrote:From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>
>a) If a resource requires a certain site or site-type to be played it must
>be played during the Site Phase (unless its text says otherwise);
This is incorrect. An resource event only has to be played during the site
phase if the card says so.
>b) No resources can be played during the Site Phase (except to cancel/
>modify an attack) until all auto-attacks have been faced.
This is correct.
ICE Digest 44 wrote:From: turin <tu...@primenet.com>
>We Have Come to Kill states that "a character may be brought into play
>under gi or di at any Shadowhold, Ruins or Border. Can you play this
>during the site phase at a site where none of your companies are? Can
>you even play it during your site phase?
You may not play it during the site phase at a site that does not
have one of your companies there. If you do have a company there,
you may play it during the site phase, *after* you face the automaticattack.
Digest 49 wrote:From: "Gary Devouges" <devo...@microtec.net>
> Can "A Chance Meeting" be used during the site phase ? The title suggests
>that a group goes to a site and by chance meet someone there ? Seems
>logical to me that it can be used during the site phase to bring the
>character in play at that site when we get there.
It can be used during the site phase, after facing the auto attack.
Digest 60 wrote:Craig Ichabod O'Brien Mar 26, 1998 12:00 AM
Posted in group: rec.games.trading-cards.misc
In article <PITZ.98Ma...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de>,
pi...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Michael Pitz ) wrote:
> In article <ichabod-2403...@dialin1110.cstone.net>
ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien) writes:
> > >Subject: Question about We Have Come to Kill
> > > can this be used to bring in a character during the site phase
> > Yes, if you have faced the automatic-attack.
> > But if I bring a character (and the site) under general influence,
> > face the automatick-attack?
> No one. Which means you can't do it. (I'm assuming you mean, bring him
> in under GI when there is no one there at the site)
> Exactly that's what I mean. But which rule contradicts that I cannot do that?
> The character I bring in will face the auto-attack when I want to play
> something at that site, that's clear.
You can't play We Have Come to Kill during the site phase before the
automatic-attack is faced. That's the rules. You can't do anything
during the site phase before the automatic-attack is faced, unless
it involves facing the automatic-attack. Therefore, you can't bring
a character into play with WHCtK during the site phase if no one
else is at the site, since you can never face the automatic-attack
before doing so.
> And, Mike Reynolds ruled it IS possible, at the World Championchip.
> Or have you revised that?
Yes. Mike only ruled that way because someone told him I had ruled that
way, which I certainly don't remember doing. If I did, I was wrong.
ICE Digest 51 wrote:>In order to play ressource at the site, you have to enter the site.
>Does it apply to all ressources, or just the ones that tap the site ?
In order to do _anything_ during the site phase, you must enter the
ICE Digest 88 wrote:From: "Paul Choquette" <mma...@vnet.net>
>So in a situation where your sage is say Celeborn and he's sitting at
>a non-haven and you have another comapny entering a different site..
>if Lure of Power were to pop up on the other company, does that mean
>that Celeborn would have to enter the site before he could Marvels
>Told it? If so, does this mean if he hadn't faced the auto attack
>BEFORE I started the site phase with the second company, that he
>COULDN'T play MT at the moment? Or, can you have him enter the site,
>face the autos, and play the MT, THEN resolve the LoP?
I would say that characters in another company cannot play anything
during the site phase. You would have to be in the company that the
Lure of Power is revealed in.
ICE Digest 88 wrote:From: Vincent LEVOIR <vinc...@club-internet.fr>
>> From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>
>> [play of hazards example snipped]
>> >But for the movement/hazard phase of the next company during the same turn,
>> >the hazard player gets to choose to apply them in any order he wants,
>> Correct. If they are both in play at the begining of the movement/hazard
>> phase, the hazard player chooses the order to apply them in.
>I disagree that, at it seems there is a mistake between a company's m/h
>phase and the turn's m/h phase (if such a distinction exists ?)
No distinction exists because there is no "turn's movement/hazard phase."
Every m/h phase is associated with a specific company, there is no
umbrella m/h phase that covers all of one player's m/h phases in one
>Suppose thre is a Reluctant Final Party (again this card) in play, and
>that you have some allies that are going to be discarded.
>As a company is not at its site until the site phase
>the allies are not in trouble until the site phase.
>Now, let suppose you draw a Marvels Told when resseting your hand after
>your first company moves. You can't play it yet, not until the m/h phase
>of your next company (no cards/actions/effect can be played/triggered
>between these phase, so I believe).
>But if you draw your Marvels Told when resseting for your last company,
>you can't play it until you have faced the auto-attack. By the time, the
>site phase would have begin, so your companies (and allies) will
>effectively be at their new site, so allies are discarded.
That is correct except for one thing: The company is not at the site
until their site phase. Just as there is no umbrella m/h phase, there
is no umbrella site phase. So, if you have multiple companies, one
without allies in danger could enter the site first, Marvels Told
the Reluctant Final Parting, and then the other could start their
site phase safely.
ICE Digest 90 wrote:From: jst...@wallace.com
>1. Is it true that I can't play any Resources in the Site Phase
>unless I face the Auto-Attack?
>2. Is it true that I can't play any Resources in the Site Phase
>until AFTER I fact the Auto-Attack, unless it modifies or affects
Yes. To be exact, you can't play it unless it cancels the attack,
cancels a strike, or is playable in the strike sequence.
>I travel to Moria with my only company. My opponent has
>Scimitars of Steel (Perm Event) and Awaken Minions (Long
>Event) in play. At the end of the Movement/Hazard Phase, I
>draw up to hand size and get Marvel's Told. (There is an
>untapped Sage in the company.)
>Is there any way I can get rid of either card with Marvel's Told
>so that I don't face 8 strikes @ 8 prowess?
Yes. During the strike sequence you could play Marvels Told to
discard Scimitars of Steel. You couldn't discard Awaken Minions,
since that would change the number of strikes after strikes
Note that this overrides what I said previously about not
being able to play Marvels Told during the strike sequence
Digest 91 wrote:From: "M. Sosa" <mso...@fiu.edu>
> Given you cannot play a resouce until facing the auto-attack (unless it
>spcecifically affects this auto attack).
> Given there is no "umbrella" M/H phase or site phase.
> Two companies, one at a Haven. Can the company at a Haven begin it's site
>phase first (no auto-attack) and MT or use that rooster card to cancel
>a perm event? Let's say this is a perm event that negatively affects the
Yes. Once they have faced the automatic-attack, there are no more odd
rules about what resources may be played.
ICE Digest 91 wrote:From: Chris Farrell <c_fa...@yahoo.com>
>- Bizzare Restriction #1 - the Site Phase: The problem is the
>prohibition against playing ANY resources in the site phase, not that
>strike sequences "run together" as I previously thought, which they in
>fact do not. Normally, you would in fact be allowed to play your
>Marvels Told (or whatever) any time during the combat, because there
>is in fact "time" to take any legal action (Turn Sequence Rulings,
>Strike Sequence, last bullet). HOWEVER, since there is this explicit
>prohibition against playing resources during the site phase until
>after the auto-attack is completed (Turn Sequence Rulings, Site Phase,
>4th bullet), normally and intuitively allowed combat activities are
>now disallowed (such as using And Forth he Hastened to untap to play a
>canceller - note that discarding Cram or Waybread to untap to use a
>canceller would by contrast be legal since it doesn't involve actually
>PLAYING a resource). Marvels Told, or for Minions, Freeze the Flesh,
>Well-Preserved, etc., may not be played. Period. Because they do not
>affect the automatic attack directly.
If you had been following the previous threads, you would realize that
the restriction on the site phase is: Before you have faced the
automatic-attack, you may only play card that cancel the attack,
cancel the strike, or are playable during the strike sequence.
If the play of Marvels Told affects the attack (as in discarding
a Scimitars of Steel) it can be played during the strike sequence.
Also, discarding a Cram is enacting a resource effect, and the
same restrictions apply to it as playing a resource.
ICE Digest 91 wrote:From: "Microtec Mail" <devo...@microtec.net>
> This card is similar to Thorough Search but does not say that the
>automatic attack has to be faced. So my question is this: if on my second
>turn at the site, I play BotH, do I have to face the auto-attack again. If
>yes, why does the card not say so ?, why nothing in the CRF ?
The second turn at the site you have to face the automatic attack to play
anything. This is specifically stated in the CRF:
A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have
faced all automatic-attacks
ICE Digest 94 wrote:From: Spen...@aol.com
>"The company is not at the site until their site phase. Just as there is no
>umbrella m/h phase, ther is no umbrella site phase. So, if you have multiple
>companies, one without allies in danger could enter the site first, Marvels
>Told the Reluctant Final Parting, and then the other could start their site
>Now I say:
>Isn't the company AT their new site at the END of their M/H phase (rather than
>at the BEGINNING of their site phase)?
No. CRF, Turn Sequence, Movement/Hazard Phase, General:
"Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand site are simultaneous
actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This
means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase."
ICE Digest 98 wrote:>Basically all the above questions can be simplifyed to
> Must I face a site's automatic attack in order to be able to tap
Not necessarily, but all of the above must be played during the site
phase, and to do anything during the site phase you have to face the
ICE Digest 99 wrote:From: Jordan Delong <jde...@azstarnet.com>
>Woah. What if I wanna play That Ain't No secret. This card doesn't tap
>the site, do I have to face the auto attacks?
Yes. To do anything during the site phase you have to face the auto.
ICE Digest 111 wrote:>8) I seem to remember conflicting statements regarding when a moving
>company arrives at its destination site: end of its m/h phase or beginning
>of its site phase.
It is not considered at the site until the beginning of the site phase.
>Would a player with Elrond moving to Rivendell get the Elrond handsize
>boost when resolving handsize at the end of Elrond's m/h phase?
Option #3 - A company which has completed its own m/h phase is not at a site until the beginning of the site phase, nor is the company still moving. They are in "limbo", or "camping outside the site", etc.
PRO - This option is defined in the Annotations and is how ICE has consistent ruled that the M/H phase and the Site phase works
CON - This interpretation is not clear from the original MELE or METW rulesbooks. You have to read the MELE Companion, or the Digests, or the CRF.