Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:17 am
Correct.
MECCG Discussion Forum
https://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/
https://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=3658
Full of Froth and Rage does not have any targets, so it can be revealed (when affecting an automatic-attack), "before the automatic-attack is resolved." Playing a creature as the second automatic-attack must also be done before the automatic-attack is resolved. So one could play a Spider or Animal creature, instantiating the type of the attack, and then reveal Full of Froth and Rage which would modify it.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:23 pm So (in your opinion) it is impossible to reveal the Fool of Froth and Rage placed as on-guard when a company enters The Under-grottos, because at the point no AA at this site is Spider or Animal attack?
EXTRACTION #1:Men. Five strikes. May also be played keyed to Andrast, Anfalas, Belfalas, Cardolan, Enedhwaith, Harondor, Lindon, Lebennin, and Old Pukel-land; and may also be played at Ruins & Lairs {R} and Shadow-holds {S} in these regions. May also be played at any site in Elven Shores, Eriadoran Coast, Andrast Coast, Bay of Belfalas, or mouths of the Anduin. "...with black sails bellying in the wind."-LotRV
Adûnaphel... May also be played keyed to (REGION LIST); and may also be played at Ruins & Lairs {R} and Shadow-holds {S} in these regions. ...
EXTRACTION #2:Unique. Nazgûl (7th). May be played as a hazard creature (with one strike) or as a permanent event. As a creature, may also be played keyed to Brown Lands, Dagorlad, Gorgoroth, and Western Mirkwood; and may also be played at sites in these regions. If played as a permanent-event, it will remain in play until tapped during the opponent's movement/hazard phase (tapping counts against the hazard limit). When tapped, Adûnaphel becomes a short-event and causes any one character to tap.
These two cards (among some others) have almost verbatim, the same TEXT FRAMEWORK.... may also be played keyed to (REGION LIST); and may also be played at sites in these regions. ...
The site keyability of cards like Adunaphel is thus based on name, whereas for cards like Corsairs of Umbar it is based on symbol. The automatic-attacks are never based on name, so Adunaphel should be clearly out.CRF wrote:A creature "played at a site in" a region is the same as being "keyed to" the site by name.
These two CRFs have purpose:
CRF wrote:A creature “played at” a site is the same as being “keyed to” the site.
But the one you are quoting, doesn't say:CRF wrote:A creature “played at a site in” a region is the same as being “keyed to” the site by name.
no where is this opposed for sites...MELE Rulebook wrote:Clarification: The player playing a hazard creature must specifically state the type of region or site that a creature is keyed to - it can affect the use of other cards.
For example, if a character with a Shadow-cloak faces a strike from a creature that has been played keyed to Shadow-land, he can tap the Shadow-cloak to cancel the strike. However, if such a strike is keyed to Border-land, he cannot use his cloak against it.
Note: A creature played keyed to a specific region by name is not keyed to the specific region's type. For example, if Thranduil's Folk is played keyed to the Grey Mountain Narrows (a Shadow-land region), a target character with a Shadow-cloak can not use it to cancel a strike - the attack is keyed to the region by name, not by type.
i.e. Keyed to by Name, guess what? the site is STILL a R&L or SH or whatever, it doesn't LOOSE what type it normally is...CRF wrote:A creature “played at a site in” a region is the same as being “keyed to” the site by name.
As much as you would like to make this about attacking me or my character, or how I choose to interpret rules, I'd rather have a thoughtful conversation about what written language is available from which the community can draw understanding.
The heart of the matter may be that it is ambiguous when Framsburg says "normally be playable keyed to a Ruins & Lairs, Shadow‐holds, Wilderness, or Shadow‐land," whether they mean by symbol, by name that has the appropriate symbol, or both. I think this might be your point? My interpretation is only by symbol, as the simplest and most consistent with other uses I feel like I've seen.MELE "Detainment" Attacks wrote:The parameters apply if the attack is keyed to the region symbol or site symbol (by type) or if keyed to a region or site by name which happens to be of appropriate type (i.e., has the appropriate symbol).
Since I have new evidence to believe that we are not on the same basis here,
But then we get CoE notions that imply that "normally" might suggest a broader context that includes the base rules in some situations:CRF wrote:Normal means as written on the card, not considering other card's effects. Note that this definition only applies to effects refering to card texts.
CoE #26 wrote:A More Evil Hour states: "Tap this card when an opponent plays a card normally giving him three or more marshalling points."
Let's say Fallen-Pallando plays, uh, Emerald of the Mariner. I assume this does not trigger AMEH, because hero resources don't normally give FW's 3+ MPs. Would it ALSO not trigger if he has Legacy of Smiths in play when he does this? Again, I assume not, because LoS doesn't change whether he "normally" gets full points, he just gets full points while it's in play.
*** Non-stage cards do not normally give more than 1 MP to Fallen-wizards, regardless of other cards in play.
Theo, I am cooled down, I just don't have time to go over everything back and forth, so I decided I had to do a FULL write up before I headed off to greener pastures i.e. WORK.Theo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:06 pm Rez, how about you read this when you've cooled down a little.
As much as you would like to make this about attacking me or my character, or how I choose to interpret rules, I'd rather have a thoughtful conversation about what written language is available from which the community can draw understanding.
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