Ringlore

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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the JabberwocK
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Ringlore

Post by the JabberwocK »

I propose the following erratum be issued:

Change:
RINGLORE ‐ Short‐event (U)
Sage only, only playable at a site where ʺInformationʺ is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Playable only during the site phase. Tap the sage and the site. Play to test a Gold Ring. No roll (or draw) is used. The player may replace the Gold Ring with any ring from his hand (except for The One Ring). Playable only during site phase. Tap the sage and the site. (E)
To:
RINGLORE ‐ Short‐event (U)
Sage only, only playable at a site where ʺInformationʺ is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Playable only during the site phase. Tap the sage and the site. Play to test a Gold Ring. No roll (or draw) is used. The player may discard the Gold Ring and play any ring to replace it (except for The One Ring). Playable only during site phase. Tap the sage and the site. (E)

The original wording leaves some room for doubt as to how exactly the replace mechanism works. This erratum would allow a ring to be played from Rumours of Rings, which is consistent with other cards which test Gold Rings (they also allow this).

Reference thread: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3306

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the JabberwocK
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Re: Ringlore

Post by the JabberwocK »

Here is the current version language of Ringlore with CRF erratum:
Sage only, only playable at a site where ʺInformationʺ is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Play to test a Gold Ring. No roll (or draw) is used. The player may replace the Gold Ring with any ring from his hand (except for The One Ring). Playable only during site phase. Tap the sage and the site. (E)

Here is my latest recommended version:
Sage only - playable only at a site where ʺInformationʺ is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Playable only during the site phase. Tap the sage and the site. Play to test a Gold Ring. No roll (or draw) is used. The player may discard the Gold Ring and play any ring to replace it (except for The One Ring).
- I moved the CRF erratum into the middle of the text where it seems more appropriate as a condition of the card.
- This allows the use of rings to be played from Rumours of Rings (like other gold ring tests).
- It clarifies the "replacing" mechanism and how it works so there is no confusion that the Gold Ring must be discarded.
- It allows the card to mechanically work correctly (please correct me if I'm mistaken).

Thoughts? Thank you!

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Ringlore

Post by Konrad Klar »

Is "Tap the sage and the site" a condition or is it a main effect?
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Shapeshifter
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Re: Ringlore

Post by Shapeshifter »

The 2nd "playable only" seems redundant to me. What about "Sage only - playable only during the site phase at a site where ʺInformationʺ is playable"?

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the JabberwocK
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Re: Ringlore

Post by the JabberwocK »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 8:51 pm
Is "Tap the sage and the site" a condition or is it a main effect?
I intend for it to be a condition. Is that okay?

If it was a main effect, would you be able to play the card if the sage or the site was already tapped? That is not the intent. Both must be untapped when the card is played.

Thanks
Shapeshifter wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:03 pm
The 2nd "playable only" seems redundant to me. What about "Sage only - playable only during the site phase at a site where ʺInformationʺ is playable"?
Yes, I like your suggestion better. Thanks.

Amended proposal:
Sage only - playable only during the site phase at a site where ʺInformationʺ is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Tap the sage and the site. Play to test a Gold Ring. No roll (or draw) is used. The player may discard the Gold Ring and play any ring to replace it (except for The One Ring).

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Ringlore

Post by Konrad Klar »

the Jabberwock wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:55 pm
Both must be untapped when the card is played.
And this could be a condition (now it is a precondition).
Tapping a site a condition is a thing without precedence AFIK.
It is possible at all, but it also makes some problem. In such case On Guard card cannot not revealed in response to playing Ringlore. Ringlore cannot potentially tap a site. At the moment when Ringlore is declared, the site is already tapped.
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the JabberwocK
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Re: Ringlore

Post by the JabberwocK »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 11:53 pm
And this could be a condition (now it is a precondition).
Tapping a site a condition is a thing without precedence AFIK.
It is possible at all, but it also makes some problem. In such case On Guard card cannot not revealed in response to playing Ringlore. Ringlore cannot potentially tap a site. At the moment when Ringlore is declared, the site is already tapped.
Ok, do you have language you might suggest that would be better?

The important thing is that you are not allowed to play Ringlore if you do not both tap a sage and tap a site.

The other important thing is that the card mechanically functions correctly (unlike Far-Sight).

If "Tap the sage and the site" is a main effect instead of a condition, how does that change the practical play and use of this card? Would you then be able to play Ringlore if your sage and/or site was already tapped?

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Re: Ringlore

Post by Bandobras Took »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 11:53 pm
the Jabberwock wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:55 pm
Both must be untapped when the card is played.
And this could be a condition (now it is a precondition).
Tapping a site a condition is a thing without precedence AFIK.
It is possible at all, but it also makes some problem. In such case On Guard card cannot not revealed in response to playing Ringlore. Ringlore cannot potentially tap a site. At the moment when Ringlore is declared, the site is already tapped.
Unless we're Balrog Summary Ruling. :)
The company plays a card that potentially would tap an untapped site.
Tapped state of the site makes no difference.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Ringlore

Post by Konrad Klar »

the Jabberwock wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 12:47 am
Ok, do you have language you might suggest that would be better?

The important thing is that you are not allowed to play Ringlore if you do not both tap a sage and tap a site.

The other important thing is that the card mechanically functions correctly (unlike Far-Sight).

If "Tap the sage and the site" is a main effect instead of a condition, how does that change the practical play and use of this card? Would you then be able to play Ringlore if your sage and/or site was already tapped?
If untapped sage and site are conditions then no.
Proposed change:
Sage only - playable only during the site phase if a sage is untapped at untapped site where ʺInformationʺ is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Tap the sage and the site. Test the Gold Ring, no roll (or draw) is used, the player may discard the Gold Ring and play any ring to replace it (except for The One Ring).
I have also replaced "Play to test a Gold Ring." with "Test the Gold Ring", The should indicate that this is the same Gold Ring mentioned earlier in text, not other Gold Ring. I have also replaced some dots with commas, to remove the illusion that "test the Gold Ring, no roll (or draw) is used, the player may discard the Gold Ring and play any ring to replace it (except for The One Ring)." are three consecutive steps, not one operation.

@Bandobras Took:
With or without Balrog Summary Ruling, a card that has condition (but not effect) that a site is tapped, when declared has on potential to tap the site.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Ringlore

Post by Bandobras Took »

I think I see where you're coming from, but I also don't think that they meant "play" in the sense of "declare and resolve."
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Ringlore

Post by Konrad Klar »

Whatever they mean, nothing may be declared in response to action A, until declaration of action A is completed.
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the JabberwocK
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Re: Ringlore

Post by the JabberwocK »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 10:35 am
Proposed change:
Sage only - playable only during the site phase if a sage is untapped at untapped site where ʺInformationʺ is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Tap the sage and the site. Test the Gold Ring, no roll (or draw) is used, the player may discard the Gold Ring and play any ring to replace it (except for The One Ring).
I have also replaced "Play to test a Gold Ring." with "Test the Gold Ring", The should indicate that this is the same Gold Ring mentioned earlier in text, not other Gold Ring. I have also replaced some dots with commas, to remove the illusion that "test the Gold Ring, no roll (or draw) is used, the player may discard the Gold Ring and play any ring to replace it (except for The One Ring)." are three consecutive steps, not one operation.
Thank you for the recommended change and explanation!

Would you please tell me (in detail) what makes your proposed change mechanically work correctly whereas Far-Sight does not mechanically work correctly?
FAR‐SIGHT ‐ Short‐event (C)
Sage only during the site phase at an untapped site where ʺInformationʺ is playable. Tap the sage and the site to search through
your play deck and choose an item that you must reveal to your opponent. This item is placed in your hand and the play deck is
reshuffled. The sage makes a corruption check.
Is it because your Ringlore text says "Tap the sage and the site." (period, end of sentence)
And because Far-Sight text says "Tap the sage and the site to search....."

A specific explanation that explains the difference between the conflict of declaring and resolving Far-Sight and its associated problems with that of Ringlore, would be appreciated!

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Ringlore

Post by Konrad Klar »

I did not say that Far-Sight does not mechanically work correctly.
I did say that Far-Sight works in needlessly complicated way.

Conditions of Far-Sight are 'an untapped site where ʺInformationʺ is playable' and sage.
When Far-Sight resolves then a nested chain of effects is created:
"search through your play deck and choose an item that you must reveal to your opponent." is declared an condition of the action (fulfilled at its declaration) is "Tap the sage and the site".
When the nested chain is resolved and completed, execution of remaining actions of Far-Sight continues.

If instead "Tap the sage and the site to search" the text would be "Tap the sage and the site and search" there would not be the nested chain of effects and net result of the card would be the same.
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the JabberwocK
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Re: Ringlore

Post by the JabberwocK »

@ Konrad -

Thank you for your help and insight.

I like your proposed version, I only made one very small change which is slightly more correct written English: added the word "an"....

Changed:
Sage only - playable only during the site phase if a sage is untapped at untapped site where ʺInformationʺ is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Tap the sage and the site. Test the Gold Ring, no roll (or draw) is used, the player may discard the Gold Ring and play any ring to replace it (except for The One Ring).
To:
Sage only - playable only during the site phase if a sage is untapped at an untapped site where ʺInformationʺ is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Tap the sage and the site. Test the Gold Ring, no roll (or draw) is used, the player may discard the Gold Ring and play any ring to replace it (except for The One Ring).

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Re: Ringlore

Post by CDavis7M »

This discussion led to CoE Erratum #7. viewtopic.php?f=103&t=3456
Ringlore - CoE Erratum #7 wrote:Sage only - playable only during the site phase if a sage is untapped at an untapped site where ʺInformationʺ is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Tap the sage and the site. Test the Gold Ring, no roll (or draw) is used, the player may discard the Gold Ring and play any ring to replace it (except for The One Ring).
----------

The Erratum above borrows language from Far-sight and other cards where an "untapped character and untapped site" are part of the playability conditions. The language on these cards came BEFORE the rules on Active Conditions were published in the METW Companion, and the language on these cards was not changed. In fact, later cards used the same wording even after the rules on Active Conditions. And now this Erratum uses that same wording.

Before Active Conditions, "playable at an untapped site" was needed because if you played the same card twice, one in response to the other, the tapping of the site would happen at resolution of the 2nd declared card (because there active conditions rules did not exist), and then the conditions for the 1st declared card would be negated. Putting "untapped" in the playability conditions prevented abuse before the rules on Active Conditions were created to prevent abuse.

Many of the comments on Ringlore and Far-sight do not acknowledge that these cards were written before active conditions. So while tapping the site at declaration of the card per the rules on active conditions would actually negate the playability conditions at resolution, it should be recognized that these cards did not account for active conditions and at the very least it should be obvious that a resource cannot invalidate its own playability conditions. The card is at least fit for its intended purpose. So that CoE Erratum is fine on that basis. Some posts mention a "nested chain of effects." There is no basis for this in the rules. One chain of effects cannot be declared and resolved within another chain of effects. There is also no reason to contrive the rules to do so just so that Far-sight "works" under the rules on Active Conditions. Instead, just recognize that Far-sight was written before Active Conditions and that the active conditions for declaring the effects of Far-sight still technically invalidate the card's own playability conditions.

Anyway, with the "later" rules on Active Conditions, the playability conditions only need to say "playable at a site", without mentioning an untapped site or an untapped character because the tapping of the site and character ARE the active conditions for declaring whatever effect is being done with the card (playing a ring, searching for an item, etc.). Therefore, a 2nd copy of the same card could not even be played in response since (A) the site would be tapped upon declaration of the 1st copy, (B) the effect of the 2nd copy could not be declared since the site cannot be tapped. The attempted play of the 2nd copy has "no effect" and is not a legal play.

Accordingly, the Erratum could have said:
Ringlore wrote:Sage only. Playable only during the site phase if a sage is untapped at an untapped at a site where ʺInformationʺ is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Tap the sage and the site. Test the Gold Ring, no roll (or draw) is used, the player may discard the Gold Ring and play any ring to replace it (except for The One Ring).
Tapping the sage and the site are active conditions that must be satisfied in order to declare the "test the gold ring" effect. An untapped sage and an untapped site are inherently required to play this card per the rules on Active Conditions.

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