Deep Mines

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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rezwits
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Re: Deep Mines

Post by rezwits »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:29 am
rezwits wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:57 am
I don't see why there isn't a LINK/BOND created with this sentence: (i.e., the SITES are adjacent...)
Because (intentionally or not) ICE decided to say that a company may move to this site only from one of your protected Wizardhavens and stated that The protected Wizardhaven is the surface site for Deep Mines. So for surface site a requirement of being protected Wizardhaven has been repeated.

There is an errata, that removes the requirement of being protected Wizardhaven for surface site.
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 144&t=3376
Yeah, I saw, the ballot, but it just needs UNDERSTANDING.

Usually when someone states:

Blah blah blah yada yada yada etc etc etc (i.e. THIS IS WHAT WE actually MEAN or are trying to say)

The "THIS IS WHAT WE actually MEAN or are trying to say" is the ACTUAL message they are relaying, in the most simplest form, to understand... what's said before almost means NOTHING...
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Re: Deep Mines

Post by the JabberwocK »

rezwits wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:18 pm
The "THIS IS WHAT WE actually MEAN or are trying to say" is the ACTUAL message they are relaying, in the most simplest form, to understand... what's said before almost means NOTHING...
Understandable to feel this way, however, that is your opinion. Such an approach opens up a great many cards and rules to interpretation. Not everyone agrees on what ICE was trying to say or intended.

One reason I value the Player Guides produced by ICE is because sometimes they do give insight into what ICE intended.

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Re: Deep Mines

Post by rezwits »

Here is another CASE IN POINT:

IF, The Way is Shut said:

A company moving from an Under-deeps site must return its site of origin. Additionally, cancels the effects of Secret Passage and Secret Entrance. Cannot be duplicated.

instead of:

A company moving to or from an Under-deeps site must return its site of origin. Additionally, cancels the effects of Secret Passage and Secret Entrance. Cannot be duplicated.

People would have no problem saying you can Move from Moria to the Under-gates, but NOT from Under-gates to Moria...

SIMPLE
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Re: Deep Mines

Post by Konrad Klar »

rezwits wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:28 pm
Here is another CASE IN POINT:

IF, The Way is Shut said:

A company moving from an Under-deeps site must return its site of origin. Additionally, cancels the effects of Secret Passage and Secret Entrance. Cannot be duplicated.

instead of:

A company moving to or from an Under-deeps site must return its site of origin. Additionally, cancels the effects of Secret Passage and Secret Entrance. Cannot be duplicated.

People would have no problem saying you can Move from Moria to the Under-gates, but NOT from Under-gates to Moria...

SIMPLE
Right, but what does it prove or disprove?
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Re: Deep Mines

Post by rezwits »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:03 pm
rezwits wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:28 pm
Here is another CASE IN POINT:

IF, The Way is Shut said:

A company moving from an Under-deeps site must return its site of origin. Additionally, cancels the effects of Secret Passage and Secret Entrance. Cannot be duplicated.

instead of:

A company moving to or from an Under-deeps site must return its site of origin. Additionally, cancels the effects of Secret Passage and Secret Entrance. Cannot be duplicated.

People would have no problem saying you can Move from Moria to the Under-gates, but NOT from Under-gates to Moria...

SIMPLE
Right, but what does it prove or disprove?
People say ICE is/was so incompetent, and I am making a point that when it came to Under-deeps, i.e. MEDM/MEAS, before MEWH, they clearly stated the restricition with to & from, and didn't leave anything out. So why do people INSIST, that this restriction:

– A company may move TO this site only from one of your protected Wizardhavens [W] and only if you have more than 6 stage points. –

takes effect when moving FROM Deep Mines??

Cheers? :lol:

n.b. The reason for this new qualm is due to the fact that I just recently found out that if:
A company moves from Rhosgobel to Deep Mines, they don't need to leave anyone behind. MEANING, Rhosgobel has some kind of "Game State" memory, that the Under-deeps site Deep Mines, remembers that Rhosgobel is the Surface site. EVEN if there is NO Rhosgobel IN PLAY.

So my point is, whatever Site was the Surface site, IT'S the SURFACE SITE. Period, that SITE IS Magically Linked by this "Game State" link. That remembers WHAT the Surfice Site WAS... DONE... Doesn't need to be Protected or Have 6 Stage Pts to move back!

Like I said, in a PERFECT world, or digitally changing video game, the Card would say, printed on the card:

Adjacent Sites: Rhosgobel (0).
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Re: Deep Mines

Post by Konrad Klar »

rezwits wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:30 am
People say ICE is/was so incompetent, and I am making a point that when it came to Under-deeps, i.e. MEDM/MEAS, before MEWH, they clearly stated the restricition with to & from, and didn't leave anything out. So why do people INSIST, that this restriction:

– A company may move TO this site only from one of your protected Wizardhavens [W] and only if you have more than 6 stage points. –

takes effect when moving FROM Deep Mines??
I do not know.
I think that a company may move from Deep Mines to any adjacent site.

Surface site of given Deep Mines is a given protected Wizardhaven.
Given protected Wizardhaven does not mean a given site card.
The site card may leave play, then may be played again, then (if not already) may become Wizardhaven, then (if not already) may become protected. And then it will be again a surface site of the given Deep Mines (if the given Deep Mines still is in play).
FW version of Rhosgobel is already a protected Wizardhaven.

FW version of Rhosgobel does not have s special memory for purposes of Deep Mines connectivity.
Rather it is memorized that protected Wizardhaven Rhosgobel is a surface site of given Deep Mines, and that protected Wizardhaven Bree is a surface site of other Deep Mines, and that protected Wizardhaven Himring is a surface site of another Deep Mines and so on.
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Re: Deep Mines

Post by rezwits »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:36 am
rezwits wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:30 am
People say ICE is/was so incompetent, and I am making a point that when it came to Under-deeps, i.e. MEDM/MEAS, before MEWH, they clearly stated the restricition with to & from, and didn't leave anything out. So why do people INSIST, that this restriction:

– A company may move TO this site only from one of your protected Wizardhavens [W] and only if you have more than 6 stage points. –

takes effect when moving FROM Deep Mines??
I do not know.
I think that a company may move from Deep Mines to any adjacent site.

Surface site of given Deep Mines is a given protected Wizardhaven.
Given protected Wizardhaven does not mean a given site card.
The site card may leave play, then may be played again, then (if not already) may become Wizardhaven, then (if not already) may become protected. And then it will be again a surface site of the given Deep Mines (if the given Deep Mines still is in play).
FW version of Rhosgobel is already a protected Wizardhaven.

FW version of Rhosgobel does not have s special memory for purposes of Deep Mines connectivity.
Rather it is memorized that protected Wizardhaven Rhosgobel is a surface site of given Deep Mines, and that protected Wizardhaven Bree is a surface site of other Deep Mines, and that protected Wizardhaven Himring is a surface site of another Deep Mines and so on.
A little lost in translation there, but thank you for proving my point... ;)

I will explain further, when time permits, have to goto the dentist for my cleaning in the morning...

But in essnce if I have a company at say Ettenmoors, that is "currently" (I'll delve deeper into the use of currently, but) a Protected Wizard haven, and my company moves DOWN. Ettenmoors is removed back to location deck. NOW, I CANNOT, say "My company is moving UP, to The White Towers w/Fortress of the Towers, because it's NOT the Surface Site, or Adjacent, but Ettenmoors IS. AND it IS KNOWN by all players THAT it is the SURFACE SITE/Adjacent...

SLEEP TIME
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Re: Deep Mines

Post by Konrad Klar »

rezwits wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:17 am
NOW, I CANNOT, say "My company is moving UP, to The White Towers w/Fortress of the Towers, because it's NOT the Surface Site, or Adjacent, but Ettenmoors IS. AND it IS KNOWN by all players THAT it is the SURFACE SITE/Adjacent...
Not merely Ettenmoors is the surface site, but Ettenmoors protected haven is the surface site for the Deep Mines.

"A company may move to this site only from one of your protected Wizardhavens [W] and only if you have more than 6 stage points. The protected Wizardhaven is the surface site for Deep Mines (i.e., the SITES are adjacent and the movement roll required to move between them is 0)."

As seen a requirement of protected Wizardhaven is repeated.

If text would be:

"A company may move to this site only from one of your protected Wizardhavens [W] and only if you have more than 6 stage points. The site is the surface site for Deep Mines (i.e., the SITES are adjacent and the movement roll required to move between them is 0)."

then a protected Wizardhaven would be required only to play Deep Mines. After the point whether the durface site is a protected Wizardhaven would be irrelevant.

For comparison:
When You Know More wrote:Light Enchantment. Playable on a sage during the site phase at a site where Information is playable. Tap sage and the site. Tap sage to modify one influence attempt by a character in his company by +2. Sage makes a corruption check. 'When you know more you will understand why you have angered my companions. We intend no evil...'-LotRIII
Underlines mine.
"Sage" is repeated. If target of the character would be referred as "target", "target character", "character", then he could use the card even if he would lose a sage skill.
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Re: Deep Mines

Post by rezwits »

...

The only thing my interpretation/clarification does, is make Deep Mines, just like any other Under Deeps site, if you CAN GET there.
i.e. the only way you would get "trapped" is if you tapped the surface site, and let it get discarded.

Tha tha tha that's all folks.

IDK, cards can be played wrong, it's understandable... it happens.

It's not like this is some EARTH SHATTERING enlightment...

Oh no, no, no, this will change the game so much, it will make Deep Mines UNDERSTANDABLY playable like an extra 20% OMG what will we ever do...

hah gees...
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Re: a Clarification

Post by rezwits »

The sad part about this whole convo is:

What good does a CLARIFICATION for this card do?

The card itself HAS a clarification, and is ignored, for some reason.

So what does this all really do for us...

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!
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Re: Deep Mines

Post by Konrad Klar »

rezwits wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:24 pm
The only thing my interpretation/clarification does, is make Deep Mines, just like any other Under Deeps site, if you CAN GET there.
i.e. the only way you would get "trapped" is if you tapped the surface site, and let it get discarded.
And that was goal of the proposed errata.
Because in my opinion the original text establishes the relationship between Deep Mines and its surface site different than "just like any other Under Deeps site".
Someone may ignore the difference, or may accept it, or may want to remove it (i.e. may propose an errata).

BTW.
The Under-galleries also is the site that has a relationship with its surface site different than "just like any other Under Deeps site".
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Re: Deep Mines

Post by the JabberwocK »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:39 am
"A company may move to this site only from one of your protected Wizardhavens [W] and only if you have more than 6 stage points. The protected Wizardhaven is the surface site for Deep Mines (i.e., the SITES are adjacent and the movement roll required to move between them is 0)."

As seen a requirement of protected Wizardhaven is repeated.

If text would be:

"A company may move to this site only from one of your protected Wizardhavens [W] and only if you have more than 6 stage points. The site is the surface site for Deep Mines (i.e., the SITES are adjacent and the movement roll required to move between them is 0)."

then a protected Wizardhaven would be required only to play Deep Mines. After the point whether the durface site is a protected Wizardhaven would be irrelevant.
I think Konrad clearly explains why a protected Wizardhaven is required to return from the Deep Mines, both in this post and his other replies.

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Re: a Clarification

Post by the JabberwocK »

rezwits wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:26 pm
The sad part about this whole convo is:

What good does a CLARIFICATION for this card do?

The card itself HAS a clarification, and is ignored, for some reason.
I don't think the clarification (as you say) on the card is being ignored. I think the "clarification" in parenthesis is just reminding people what a surface site is.

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Re: Deep Mines

Post by Konrad Klar »

And that "the movement roll required to move between them is 0", that is not quite obvious (for some Balrog under-deeps site cards it is not 0).
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Re: Deep Mines

Post by Theo »

the JabberwocK wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:16 pm
Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:29 am
rezwits wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:57 am
I don't see why there isn't a LINK/BOND created with this sentence: (i.e., the SITES are adjacent...)
Because (intentionally or not) ICE decided to say that a company may move to this site only from one of your protected Wizardhavens and stated that The protected Wizardhaven is the surface site for Deep Mines. So for surface site a requirement of being protected Wizardhaven has been repeated.

There is an errata, that removes the requirement of being protected Wizardhaven for surface site.
viewtopic.php?f=144&t=3376
Correction - This erratum did not pass and is not effective. Thus you will not see it on the Master List of CoE issued errata:
viewtopic.php?f=103&t=3541

While the proposed erratum did easily pass the popular vote, it had 3 acting Council Members vote against the measure, which is more than 1/3 of the Council (3 of 8 members). This ballot item was one of three in the 2018 ARV deemed as "Status Quo" items. Per the Charter, any Status Quo item may not have more than 1/3 of Council Members voting against in order to pass. The failure of this measure to pass was announced here:
viewtopic.php?f=144&t=3444
Actually, it doesn't matter if this passed, because it is already effectively the CoE rule.
CoE #123 wrote:3 a)
I have a company at Deep Mines but I lose my surface site haven. Where can the company go upstairs? Another haven or the same?
---------------------------------------------------
Deep Mines' surface site is set when you reveal DM, and does not change for that particular Deep Mines while in play. So if you go there from Rhosgobel, you cannot pop up at a protected Isengard.

3 b)
Or, when it’s Ettenmoors and it returns to deck I lose all stages at this site and it isn’t a haven anymore - Deep Mines is still connected with this site or not?
---------------------------------------------------
If Ettenmoors became the surface site of a Deep Mines, it will remain as such as long as that Deep Mines is in play, regardless of Ettenmoor’s protected Wizardhaven status.
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